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Displaced Fan
 Post subject: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:55 pm 
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So a few days ago Ron Paul and Barney Frank teamed up super hero style and introduced a new bill that proposes "not to legalize marijuana but to remove it from the list of federally controlled substances while allowing states to decide how they will regulate it."

The idea is to leave it up to the states and get the Feds out of the picture. Living in Colorado I have a slightly different view perhaps since the laws here are WAAAAYY loose. You can basically have weed on you (under an ounce) and not worry about anything more than a ticket perhaps. There are pot shops on every other corner in some parts of town and a few streets are so thick with them that all you smell is ganga if your windows are down!

I don't think this has too much chance of passing but who knows. What do you guys think? I don't smoke myself but I have never seen pot as a bad drug. I mean if you can't because of your job then don't but it's fine in my opinion. Of course with any drug comes moderation but when you set pot next to drugs like crack or heroin I just have never seen the point of treating it as a prison worthy offense.

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Marijuana laws should be set at the state, not federal, level, Reps. Ron Paul and Barney Frank argued in a bill they introduced Thursday.

The goal of the bill, HR 2306, is not to legalize marijuana but to remove it from the list of federally controlled substances while allowing states to decide how they will regulate it.

"I do not advocate urging people to smoke marijuana. Neither do I urge them to drink alcoholic beverages or smoke tobacco," said Frank (D-Mass.). "But in none of these cases do I think prohibition enforced by criminal sanctions is good public policy.

"Criminally prosecuting adults for making the choice to smoke marijuana is a waste of law enforcement resources and an intrusion on personal freedom," he added.

Frank admitted in a conference call Thursday that he didn't think the bill had a chance of passing, but according to Reason's Hit & Run blog, the congressman was "particularly struck by the hypocrisy of public officials who will themselves talk about smoking marijuana, wink at it, and then make it criminal for other people," which leads to "a very discriminatory pattern of enforcement."

The bill appears doomed on arrival, according to the Associated Press, which reported that House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith said his panel, which the proposed law is required to venture through, would not even consider it.

"Marijuana use and distribution is prohibited under federal law because it has a high potential for abuse and does not have an accepted medical use in the U.S.," said Smith, who like Paul is a Texas Republican. "The Food and Drug Administration has not approved smoked marijuana for any condition or disease."

Smith cited the theory that pot is a gateway drug, and then added the curious belief that legalizing weed would increase the coffers of drug lords.

"Decriminalizing marijuana will only lead to millions more Americans becoming addicted to drugs and greater profits for drug cartels who fund violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. Allowing states to determine their own marijuana policy flies in the face of Supreme Court precedent," Smith said.

The Office of National Drug Control Policy echoed some of Smith's fears and said decriminalizing pot was a nonstarter.

"Our concern with marijuana is not borne out of any culture war or drug war mentality, but out of what the science tells us about the drug’s effects. The facts are that marijuana potency has tripled in the past 20 years and teens are using the drug at earlier ages," the office said in a statement to The Times.

"The earlier a person begins to use drugs, the more likely they are to progress to more serious abuse and addiction -– reflecting the harmful, long-lasting effects drugs can have on the developing brain. Legalization remains a nonstarter in the Obama administration because research shows that marijuana use is associated with voluntary treatment admissions, fatal drugged driving accidents and emergency room admissions," the statement said.


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:50 pm 
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I approve but it won't pass.

I'd also like to throw this on the pile of liberties we once gave up only to celebrate getting back.

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Displaced Fan
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
I approve but it won't pass.

I'd also like to throw this on the pile of liberties we once gave up only to celebrate getting back.


Honestly, no one here cares much about the wet blanket crap. The whole reason people are happy about things like this is BECAUSE we're righting what in many people's opinion was a bad law. That's the main point at the heart of all civil rights and civil liberty movements. Would you tell African Americans after the Civil War or in the 40's-60's that they shouldn't celebrate civil rights victories because they shouldn't have been treated poorly in the first place? It makes no sense in real life, only when discussing it philosophically.

Now if you want to talk about the the chicken or the egg question in regards to our freedoms and our fights in it's own thread then fine. But the whole point here is to simply discuss if you think legalizing pot is a good or bad idea. It's a straight forward question.

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Hammygoodness
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:04 am 
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Heh heh. I read the thread title as someone's nickname. Then it clicked. Yeah, I can get behind this. Don't smoke myself, and never will, but let the states decide for themselves. Laws to protect people from themselves are bad laws in my view.

Ham

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Rud
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:08 am 
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I sure wish this would pass but it sure won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:11 am 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
But the whole point here is to simply discuss if you think legalizing pot is a good or bad idea. It's a straight forward question.

Which I addressed in my first sentence.

What is your definition of a discussion?
Perhaps the title of the thread should be more specific.

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fan4life61
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:46 am 
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I think we should legalize marijuana… So potheads have nothing to talk about ever again. Grow up and do coke like an adult.
-Daniel Tosh

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PuckSniperPensel
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:51 pm 
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The prohibition of Cannabis is one of the most idiotic legislations the United States government has ever passed, and it was fueled mostly by special interest groups to start.

Anyone against the deregulation of Cannabis simply doesn't understand or know the facts.

In case you're one of them:

http://www.mpp.org/assets/pdfs/download ... 092008.pdf

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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:11 pm 
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PSP - that's definitely one side of the coin. The problem with that site is that it sounds SO pro-pot that it's hard to take seriously. I'm not doubting the facts, their references are cited well. I just think it shouldn't be so in-your-face.

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Squanto
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Right. An organization dedicated to the eradication of dope laws should clearly be relied upon as an objective source. :)

The only argument that matters is that the federal war on drugs has failed, and is a waste of money. Penalties are too steep based on the severity of the crime, and frankly most of them are unenforceable. On that point alone, repeal the damn things.

The rest is just bullshit wrapped around an excuse to want to smoke openly.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
Right. An organization dedicated to the eradication of dope laws should clearly be relied upon as an objective source. :)

The only argument that matters is that the federal war on drugs has failed, and is a waste of money. Penalties are too steep based on the severity of the crime, and frankly most of them are unenforceable. On that point alone, repeal the damn things.

The rest is just bullshit wrapped around an excuse to want to smoke openly.


LOL, I'm aware, I'm just saying - to be taken seriously, you need to be objective. I kind of hate hearing "educated" potheads give reasons...I just can't take them seriously.

You're spot on w/ the argument that matters...billions of dollars later and it's more widely distributed and available than ever before.

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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm 
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I'm in the middle on this one. I 100% believe it should be decriminalized Federally (because it was a sham from the start) but I also believe states should regulate it as a controlled substance.

Then if you don't like being a felon for toking up, move the hell out of Alabama.

Wow, it's almost like the 10th amendment makes sense.

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Sabresfansince1980
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:44 pm 
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http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/new ... _Chief.pdf

For those that don't know about Kerlikowski...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Kerlikowske

He's not a right wing zealot by any means, having been appointed under Clinton and now by Obama. It's an interesting read regardless of your position. He was my instructor during my senior year at Buffalo State College, and has a very forward thinking mindset. So PSP, this issue isn't so cut and dry the way you think.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Quote:
And the science, though still evolving, is clear: marijuana use is harmful. It is associated with dependence, respiratory and mental illness, poor motor performance, and cognitive impairment, among other negative effects


Alcohol and tobacco are the same way, but they're legal. So the "it's bad for you and harmful" argument really doesn't work for me.

Quote:
We know that over 120,000 people who showed up voluntarily at treatment facilities in 2007 reported marijuana as their primary...


I'd like to see if the questionnaire at that facility even ASKED if they smoked tobacco, and if that was a result that was quantified, or if it was just discarded. It may seem a little ridiculous, but I can't imagine a crackhead or someone that shoots heroin as a "non-smoker".

His speech is exactly what you would expect from someone paid to take a particular stance - while he's well educated and can be objective, he's also smart enough to know that to make a buck, you need someone to pay your ass. He picked the research that proved his point, as anyone with half an education knows to do.

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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Controls and prohibitions help to keep prices higher, and higher prices help keep use rates relatively low, since drug use, especially among young people, is known to be sensitive to price.


It all makes sense to me now....THAT'S why it's so hard to find pot, and so expensive when I do. /sarcasm

Disclaimer: I have never smoked pot, and have never even tried to find it. Regardless of those two facts, just by day to day interaction with people in an environment where drug use is HEAVILY frowned upon, I know of at least four different people that would point me where I needed to go for it.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:28 pm 
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fan4life61 wrote:
Quote:
I think we should legalize marijuana… So potheads have nothing to talk about ever again. Grow up and do coke like an adult.
-Daniel Tosh


i dont have any beef with the legalization of pot, but there are few things more annoying then the "legalize it" crowd.

you know, the ones who pretty much live to smoke, and feel the need to educate me on the subject. i dont care. go the fuck away.

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fan4life61
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:36 am 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
fan4life61 wrote:
Quote:
I think we should legalize marijuana… So potheads have nothing to talk about ever again. Grow up and do coke like an adult.
-Daniel Tosh


i dont have any beef with the legalization of pot, but there are few things more annoying then the "legalize it" crowd.

you know, the ones who pretty much live to smoke, and feel the need to educate me on the subject. i dont care. go the fuck away.


exactly

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PuckSniperPensel
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/news/speech10/030410_Chief.pdf

For those that don't know about Kerlikowski...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Kerlikowske

He's not a right wing zealot by any means, having been appointed under Clinton and now by Obama. It's an interesting read regardless of your position. He was my instructor during my senior year at Buffalo State College, and has a very forward thinking mindset. So PSP, this issue isn't so cut and dry the way you think.


He's comparing prescription pain killers which are basically manufactured heroine to Cannabis.

His point is that because prescriptions are legal, they're more accessible to kids. Here are the issues with his position.

1. Prescription pain killers are more accessible than marijuana because parents leave their pill bottles right in kitchen cabinetry, just as he states himself!
Quote:
Because prescription drugs are legal, they are easily accessible, often from a home medicine cabinet.

Parents carry their tobacco with them.

2. Prescription pain killers are hundreds of times more dangerous than marijuana. You cannot OD on pot. You can OD on prescription pain killers. You cannot become dangerously and increasingly addicted to marijuana like you can to prescription pain killers or even cigarettes.

Quote:
Specifically about marijuana, he said, "It's a dangerous drug..."


Lost his credibility in my eyes right there.

3.
Quote:
First, on the medical marijuana issue, I believe that the science should determine what a medicine is, not popular vote.


So he believes that government should ignore the general consensus of society and that the corporations should determine how we address pain. So far, as you can see by the problems we're having with prescription pain killers, that's worked out tremendously well.

4.
Quote:
I recently met with officials from the Netherlands, they are closing down marijuana outlets – or “coffee shops” – because of the nuisance and crime risks associated with them. What used to be thousands of shops have now been reduced to a few hundred, and some cities are shutting them down completely.8


Their problems have nothing to do with the red light district and the dope issues over there? It's all about the marijuana?

5.
Quote:
Though I sympathize with the current budget predicament – and acknowledge that we must find innovative solutions to get us on a path to financial stability – it is clear that the social costs of legalizing marijuana would outweigh any possible tax that could be levied. In the United States, illegal drugs already cost $180 billion a year in health care, lost productivity, crime, and other expenditures.23 That number would only increase under legalization because of increased use.


I don't know the facts monetarily, but he's lumping together all illegal drug costs rather than those associated with marijuana alone.

As far as the rehab stats go, addicts of other drugs often check in and claim they're there for marijuana in hopes of entering a faster program, and yet still be kept away from other drugs.

Lastly, I don't think it's fair for the government to decide what I choose to engage in. I think it's the government's responsibility to inform and protect, but not control our decisions in regards to our own lives.

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Sabresfansince1980
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Dissect the speech all you want. There are valid points and others besides him that have serious concerns about what the outcome of legalized mj would be. I think the biggest misconception is that cartels and DTOs would be out of business. They would fight like hell to retain control of production or take over distribution centers in one way or another. The issue just isn't as simple as some people want to think.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Marijuana Bill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
Dissect the speech all you want. There are valid points and others besides him that have serious concerns about what the outcome of legalized mj would be. I think the biggest misconception is that cartels and DTOs would be out of business. They would fight like hell to retain control of production or take over distribution centers in one way or another. The issue just isn't as simple as some people want to think.


And pot isn't as bad as some people want to think.

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