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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:17 am 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
ksquier89 wrote:
Why should we think that one general law makes sense for the United States as a whole. Our government should be fragmented into a state run entity. This would take pressure off the central government and allow laws and regulations to adhere to their citizens rights in a more reasonable fashion. If Vermont wants to allow abortions or California would like to counter their debt by selling marijuana they should be allowed to.



Totally! If I want to, for example, take a ship over to africa, 'acquire' some savages, bring them over here and 'encourage' them to work for roughly 8 dollars less than the minimum wage, who is this damned socialist OBAMA to tell me I cant? (spits chaw juice onto ground)


Where in the HELL did this argument come from? Like, it doesn't make ANY sense to me, and doesn't even really logically respond to ksquier's post...


Seriously dude? Am I the only one here who equates "states rights" to the argument surrounding slavery? That was one of the main focuses of the civil war, states rights vs central government. I find decentralizing control of basic laws like this a fucking terrible idea, for the reason stated above. I didnt think i'd have to spell it out like this. I dont trust individual states to 'do the right thing', I'm surprised anyone does. You guys all talk such shit about the south whenever we play the hurricanes, but now you'd trust them to make the right decisions regarding things like basic human rights?



1)I don't think I've talked much shit about the south. 2) I think YOU'RE the one saying to not trust the south....

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YankeeInRaleigh
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:22 am 
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NYIntensity wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
ksquier89 wrote:
Why should we think that one general law makes sense for the United States as a whole. Our government should be fragmented into a state run entity. This would take pressure off the central government and allow laws and regulations to adhere to their citizens rights in a more reasonable fashion. If Vermont wants to allow abortions or California would like to counter their debt by selling marijuana they should be allowed to.



Totally! If I want to, for example, take a ship over to africa, 'acquire' some savages, bring them over here and 'encourage' them to work for roughly 8 dollars less than the minimum wage, who is this damned socialist OBAMA to tell me I cant? (spits chaw juice onto ground)


Where in the HELL did this argument come from? Like, it doesn't make ANY sense to me, and doesn't even really logically respond to ksquier's post...


Seriously dude? Am I the only one here who equates "states rights" to the argument surrounding slavery? That was one of the main focuses of the civil war, states rights vs central government. I find decentralizing control of basic laws like this a fucking terrible idea, for the reason stated above. I didnt think i'd have to spell it out like this. I dont trust individual states to 'do the right thing', I'm surprised anyone does. You guys all talk such shit about the south whenever we play the hurricanes, but now you'd trust them to make the right decisions regarding things like basic human rights?



1)I don't think I've talked much shit about the south. 2) I think YOU'RE the one saying to not trust the south....


I'm the one saying we shouldnt give federal government control over to the states, that they cant be trusted to make some of the harder decisions. Are you paying attention to this thread at all?


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:14 am 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
I'm the one saying we shouldnt give federal government control over to the states, that they cant be trusted to make some of the harder decisions.

The problem with this attitude, while it may be logically sound, is the Federal government doesn't have the right to pick and choose which issues it's allowed to wrest from state authority.
It's clearly defined in the constitution.

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Mr. Natural
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:45 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
I'm the one saying we shouldnt give federal government control over to the states, that they cant be trusted to make some of the harder decisions.

The problem with this attitude, while it may be logically sound, is the Federal government doesn't have the right to pick and choose which issues it's allowed to wrest from state authority.
It's clearly defined in the constitution.

Just as the Constitution is very clear that only Congress has the right to declare war, yet the last time they exercised that right and obligation was in 1941. Since then 100,000 Americans have died in wars that were not Constitutionally legal.

Some of the very same politicians who argue that the federal government has usurped authority from the states have been more than willing to allow the executive branch to usurp authority from the legislative branch, which would have horrified James Madison and the other framers of the Constitution.

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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:47 am 
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Mr. Natural wrote:
Just as the Constitution is very clear that only Congress has the right to declare war, yet the last time they exercised that right and obligation was in 1941. Since then 100,000 Americans have died in wars that were not Constitutionally legal.

Some of the very same politicians who argue that the federal government has usurped authority from the states have been more than willing to allow the executive branch to usurp authority from the legislative branch, which would have horrified James Madison and the other framers of the Constitution.

Right, that's completely unrelated, but I agree with you and so does Ron Paul.

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Mr. Natural
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:10 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
Just as the Constitution is very clear that only Congress has the right to declare war, yet the last time they exercised that right and obligation was in 1941. Since then 100,000 Americans have died in wars that were not Constitutionally legal.

Some of the very same politicians who argue that the federal government has usurped authority from the states have been more than willing to allow the executive branch to usurp authority from the legislative branch, which would have horrified James Madison and the other framers of the Constitution.

Right, that's completely unrelated, but I agree with you and so does Ron Paul.

Except, the war powers clause of the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 11) is unambiguous in its meaning and in the intent of the framers. Only one member of the Constitutional Convention even suggested that the president be given power to wage war and that idea was roundly derided as inconsistent with ideals of republican government by the rest of the Convention.

However, the 10th Amendment was originally viewed as not even being needed by the author of the Constitution (Madison said it was "superfluous" and "unnecessary") and has been found by the Supreme Court as adding "nothing to the [Constitution] as originally ratified." The Supreme Court, in its history, almost never declares laws unconstitutional for violating the 10th Amendment (I don't think it has done so more than three or four times in the last 70 years).

My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.

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Last edited by Mr. Natural on Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:22 am 
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Mr. Natural wrote:
My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.


Maybe, but since I agreed with your last post you can see I'm not one of those people...and neither is Ron Paul.
So I'm not clear on the reason for the lecture.

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Mr. Natural
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:24 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.


Maybe, but since I agreed with your last post you can see I'm not one of those people...and neither is Ron Paul.
So I'm not clear on the reason for the lecture.

It was a bit of a lecture, wasn't it.

Sorry.

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backthatSASSup
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:39 am 
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Mr. Natural wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.


Maybe, but since I agreed with your last post you can see I'm not one of those people...and neither is Ron Paul.
So I'm not clear on the reason for the lecture.

It was a bit of a lecture, wasn't it.

Sorry.


I thought it was interesting.


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ksquier89
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:42 am 
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Mr. Natural wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.


Maybe, but since I agreed with your last post you can see I'm not one of those people...and neither is Ron Paul.
So I'm not clear on the reason for the lecture.

It was a bit of a lecture, wasn't it.

Sorry.


T'was a history lesson. And both parties have been consolidating power to the federal government for a long time now. It's not "his party did this" or "Well your party did this" They are both fucking us equally as hard.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:22 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
ksquier89 wrote:
Why should we think that one general law makes sense for the United States as a whole. Our government should be fragmented into a state run entity. This would take pressure off the central government and allow laws and regulations to adhere to their citizens rights in a more reasonable fashion. If Vermont wants to allow abortions or California would like to counter their debt by selling marijuana they should be allowed to.



Totally! If I want to, for example, take a ship over to africa, 'acquire' some savages, bring them over here and 'encourage' them to work for roughly 8 dollars less than the minimum wage, who is this damned socialist OBAMA to tell me I cant? (spits chaw juice onto ground)


Where in the HELL did this argument come from? Like, it doesn't make ANY sense to me, and doesn't even really logically respond to ksquier's post...


Seriously dude? Am I the only one here who equates "states rights" to the argument surrounding slavery? That was one of the main focuses of the civil war, states rights vs central government. I find decentralizing control of basic laws like this a fucking terrible idea, for the reason stated above. I didnt think i'd have to spell it out like this. I dont trust individual states to 'do the right thing', I'm surprised anyone does. You guys all talk such shit about the south whenever we play the hurricanes, but now you'd trust them to make the right decisions regarding things like basic human rights?



1)I don't think I've talked much shit about the south. 2) I think YOU'RE the one saying to not trust the south....


I'm the one saying we shouldnt give federal government control over to the states, that they cant be trusted to make some of the harder decisions. Are you paying attention to this thread at all?


To suggest that the southern states would reinstate slavery is ludicrous. You also, by definition, CAN'T give federal government control to the states....

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YankeeInRaleigh
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:29 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
To suggest that the southern states would reinstate slavery is ludicrous. You also, by definition, CAN'T give federal government control to the states....



Wow, really on my nuts about this huh? I swear, I really thought your reading comprehension was better than you're showing.

It was an historical example of what I consider to be wrong with the 'states rights' arguments. Please, PLEASE show me one time where I 'suggested that southern states would reinstate slavery'. I've suggested how I might personally go get some slaves, and there would be no one to stop me...true, but i've not said "the south would once again enslave people"


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ksquier89
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:47 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
To suggest that the southern states would reinstate slavery is ludicrous. You also, by definition, CAN'T give federal government control to the states....



Wow, really on my nuts about this huh? I swear, I really thought your reading comprehension was better than you're showing.

It was an historical example of what I consider to be wrong with the 'states rights' arguments. Please, PLEASE show me one time where I 'suggested that southern states would reinstate slavery'. I've suggested how I might personally go get some slaves, and there would be no one to stop me...true, but i've not said "the south would once again enslave people"

If you decided you were going to get slaves you would have your ass promptly beat into a fucking pulp. Basic human nature would say that enslaving others is wrong and innapropriate. This has been the common consensus among US citizens for some time now. Shit, we have even give women the right to vote. If you are going to go back that far why not use the example of the trail of tears or of Columbus fucking over the natives.


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CriminallyVu1gar
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 pm 
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ksquier89 wrote:
If you decided you were going to get slaves you would have your ass promptly beat into a fucking pulp. Basic human nature would say that enslaving others is wrong and innapropriate. This has been the common consensus among US citizens for some time now. Shit, we have even give women the right to vote. If you are going to go back that far why not use the example of the trail of tears or of Columbus fucking over the natives.


We have even given women the right to vote? Such an enlightened society we have now. [/sarcasm]

I think the contentious nature of slavery is making the original point get lost. I think YIR's point is that some states might enact certain policies that society as a whole deems unsavory. The slavery topic isn't a bad one as it perfectly illustrates how giving the states too much power allows them to enact laws that are reprehensible. It happened once, there's no reason to think it can't happen again with something else. (Gay rights for instance.)

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Hammygoodness
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:31 pm 
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ksquier89 wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Mr. Natural wrote:
My point is, the very same Constitutional strict constructionists who rail about the power of the federal government, have no problem creating an imperial presidency which the original framers saw as the greater danger to liberty.


Maybe, but since I agreed with your last post you can see I'm not one of those people...and neither is Ron Paul.
So I'm not clear on the reason for the lecture.

It was a bit of a lecture, wasn't it.

Sorry.


T'was a history lesson. And both parties have been consolidating power to the federal government for a long time now. It's not "his party did this" or "Well your party did this" They are both fucking us equally as hard.

As a constitutionalist myself, I agree with the sentiment that recent (and not so recent) military actions have been unconstitutional in that war has not been declared. It is a dangerous consolidation of power to have the executive branch directing military conflicts without congress declaring war. And I agree, both political parties have been complicit in this and in other ways in which the Executive branch has been consolidating power, often at the expense of the legislative branch.

Holy crap, are most of us actually in agreement on this? That'd probably be a first for the politics forum.

Ham

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ksquier89
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:36 pm 
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You think trying to get the entire nation to agree on gay marriage will make it any easier? State by state enactment would probably be best.


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CriminallyVu1gar
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:41 pm 
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ksquier89 wrote:
You think trying to get the entire nation to agree on gay marriage will make it any easier? State by state enactment would probably be best.


I disagree considering that 39 states have state constitutional or statute bans on same-sex marriage even though support for it is at worst even with opposition. But that's taking us a wee bit off topic.

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Squanto
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:48 pm 
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ksquier89 wrote:
You think trying to get the entire nation to agree on gay marriage will make it any easier? State by state enactment would probably be best.


The entire nation will never agree 100% on anything.

It's bad enough we have red states and blue states. Do we really want gay states and straight ones, as an example?


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:58 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
To suggest that the southern states would reinstate slavery is ludicrous. You also, by definition, CAN'T give federal government control to the states....



Wow, really on my nuts about this huh? I swear, I really thought your reading comprehension was better than you're showing.

I've suggested how I might personally go get some slaves, and there would be no one to stop me...true, but i've not said "the south would once again enslave people"


No need for a personal attack man, I'm fairly certain my comprehension level is adequate to have a conversation with you.

I don't understand how you figure "there would be no one to stop you"? There isn't anyone advocating the end of federal laws and regulations, just a redaction of the reach that they've got.

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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:01 pm 
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CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
ksquier89 wrote:
If you decided you were going to get slaves you would have your ass promptly beat into a fucking pulp. Basic human nature would say that enslaving others is wrong and innapropriate. This has been the common consensus among US citizens for some time now. Shit, we have even give women the right to vote. If you are going to go back that far why not use the example of the trail of tears or of Columbus fucking over the natives.


We have even given women the right to vote? Such an enlightened society we have now. [/sarcasm]

I think the contentious nature of slavery is making the original point get lost. I think YIR's point is that some states might enact certain policies that society as a whole deems unsavory. The slavery topic isn't a bad one as it perfectly illustrates how giving the states too much power allows them to enact laws that are reprehensible. It happened once, there's no reason to think it can't happen again with something else. (Gay rights for instance.)


LOL, playing devil's advocate, are you comparing gay rights to slavery? Following proper legal procedures, a gay couple *can* have all the same rights when it comes to things like decisions to "pull the plug" in a medical scenario, or the recipient of any insurance benefits, etc...

There's no legal procedure to come close to "owning" someone ;)

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