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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Well, look at the writing on the wall, and it says to me 2012 they even more fed up, and not just with obama.


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Well, pundits and GOP officials are talking with optimism about taking the senate in 2012.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 11492.html

Dennis Kucinich lost his primary last night....Barney Frank and about 5 other long time Democratic members are retiring.

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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:11 pm 
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On a local level it's easy, just tell people you'll lower taxes and they'll elect you. Doesn't mean a thing about what "direction" the country is going except toward selfishness.


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Sabresfansince1980
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Just tell people the gov't will provide more social services, subsidized housing, and other entitlements and they'll elect you. Doesn't mean a thing about what "direction" the contry is going except toward selfishness.


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 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:20 pm 
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I think to sit here after three years of the GOP digging in and voting against virtually every single thing the Dems offer up and then turn around and blame Obama for division is pretty silly. I mean it's exactly what the GOP wanted to accomplish but it's silly. They have made a clear decision to block anything he puts up so the GOP can turn it around and say he didn't get anything accomplished accept for polarizing the field. When you are a purposeful obstruction, even in cases where the majority of voters disagree with your stance (taxes) you have gone from doing what is the will of the people to doing what is the will of your party.

I'm not saying that everything the Dems have tossed up is gold, I'm saying that the dialogue has changed from adult conversation to something more akin to crossing your arms, stomping your feet and saying no. Like a four year old would.

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Sabresfansince1980
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:34 pm 
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The division started well before Obama. Nobody is blaming Obama for all the division, but some say he's not responsible at all. It's exhibit A for the "us vs. them" mentality.


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 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:01 pm 
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All I'm saying is that the obstruction needs to be seen as the trick it is. Keeping the dems from accomplishing anything is the best chance the GOP has at turning things their way come election time but it's dirty and unethical as shit. They are the ones at fault but spin it so the shit sticks to Obama. Keep as much as possible from happening while grossly magnifying any flaw of something that does happen. Going back to an oldie....if Obama made it rain cookies the GOP headlines the next day would read "Obama leaves millions milkless."

The sad part is that they would have had a chance with Huntsman but they have set themselves so far in the right that the he doesn't reflect the GOP's projected brand now. In all honesty, knowing what I knew of Huntsman when he dropped out, I would have been ready to vote Republican had he gotten the nod. Now they have two complete flops as the front runners, neither of which have a snowball's chance at winning against Obama IMO.

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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:10 pm 
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If you recall the Dems held both houses when Obama was elected and still couldn't get anything done.

They need to stop whining and stop putting up bills they know won't pass.

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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
Just tell people the gov't will provide more social services, subsidized housing, and other entitlements and they'll elect you. Doesn't mean a thing about what "direction" the contry is going except toward selfishness.

Problem with this is that NO ONE for at least 15 years has campaigned on increasing entitlements, democrat or republican. But almost EVERY candidate has campaigned on lowering taxes no matter party affiliation. So again, if there are "two sides to every coin", one side is getting all the play as far as I see.


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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:23 pm 
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I'm not sure exactly how his thread took the turn it did here, but my main point is to agree with the idea that in no way is Obama, or any deomcrat, AS far "left" as Santorum is "right". Look at every democratic presidential candidate since Michael Dukakis, they all say basically the same thing as the Republican candidate: "We need a strong defense", "Cut taxes", "Cut useless regulation and redtape", "Make a good environment for business". The deomcarts are NOT out there saying "The environment has to come first", "We need to take care of every citizen", "Everyone should always be promived for", that's just not even close to their message. That's why I'm not a democrat.


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Problem with this is that NO ONE for at least 15 years has campaigned on increasing entitlements, democrat or republican


uh....
I'd classify giving health insurance coverage to everyone without it, at no charge, an increase of entitlements.
Obama campaigned on that and so did did Democratic members of congress.

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 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
I'm not sure exactly how his thread took the turn it did here, but my main point is to agree with the idea that in no way is Obama, or any deomcrat, AS far "left" as Santorum is "right"..

I'd agree with that....well...I know some pretty damn far left politicians. Maybe not Obama, but there are a few in the house that give Santorum a run for his money.
I also don't really see anyone here (left, right or center) advocating for the guy.
Frankly I think he's a fucking embarrassment. I was absolutely stunned last night when I saw exit polls in Ohio reporting independents breaking for Santorum.

Unbelievable....he should only appeal to the most far right social conservatives and I can't believe he would get any support from an independent.

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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:33 pm 
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I'll agree with the health insurance thing, but I don't think that changes the thrust of my point. Give me another example (that doesn't have to do with Medicare, everyone's favorite entitlement due to the "gray vote") and I'd consider that a better counter argument. National health insurance was also favored by the majority of Americans in that case.


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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
I'm not sure exactly how his thread took the turn it did here, but my main point is to agree with the idea that in no way is Obama, or any deomcrat, AS far "left" as Santorum is "right"..

I'd agree with that....well...I know some pretty damn far left politicians. Maybe not Obama, but there are a few in the house that give Santorum a run for his money.
I also don't really see anyone here (left, right or center) advocating for the guy.

No, but it's a part of the overall Fox Newsesque landscape to make comparisons like that. No one is advocating him, but they are also distorting reality to imply in any way that he's just the right's Obama.


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Sabresfansince1980
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:51 pm 
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I never actually compared Santorum to Obama anyway. I said the increasingly divisive rhetoric from all corners of politics causes people to dig in and support increasingly extremist candidates as time goes by. The surprising support for Santorum is a result. He won't get elected, but if he did people would get fed up after a while. Then you would see the next democratic candidate that's even more left leaning than Obama, supported by extreme rhetoric that whips up a support base.


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Displaced Fan
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:01 pm 
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If he gets the GOP bill I am going to have to completely rethink everything I have learned about modern humanity.

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 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
I'll agree with the health insurance thing, but I don't think that changes the thrust of my point. Give me another example (that doesn't have to do with Medicare, everyone's favorite entitlement due to the "gray vote") and I'd consider that a better counter argument. National health insurance was also favored by the majority of Americans in that case.

Well your point was all candidates run on the lower tax issue...while that may be true, it's not the full story.

Obama and the left in general approach the tax issue as pure class warfare for election purposes.

"I'm promise to lower taxes on working Americans and to expand relief for the middle class. But you see those rich guys over there? Fuck them, I'm going to raise capital gains rates, estate taxes and close corporate loopholes to pay for your tax cuts."

Something like that ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
If he gets the GOP bill I am going to have to completely rethink everything I have learned about modern humanity.


Not going to happen.
Super PACs keeping Newt and Santorum on life support is the only reason this has gone this far.

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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:12 pm 
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I just feel that somehow rightwing media has hijacked the conversation and we are all playing on their terms, that's probably the main source of my frustration. Somehow, we've gotten to where it's more acceptable for people and politicians to say "People on welfare are lazy bums that are a drain on society", than it is for them to say "Maybe these people down on their luck right now should be helped out by the government". A politician in this country would actually be criticized far more for saying the second statement than the first, and I think it's crazy. I think it's crazy how the idea that private business is always more efficient and less costly than government is taken as a matter of both faith and fact. I just hate the atmosphere in political dialogue.


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Rick Santorum
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:16 pm 
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For sheer volume, there's just as much left wing media as there is right wing media.
It's just people on the right consume more of it and seem to be easier to convince to carry water for a particular ideology or candidate.

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