I don't want to start a huge debate about whether the Scouts should or should not have to accept people they don't want to, I just wanted to get your opinion on a different angle.

I was a Scout for a long time and had a blast. I learned a lot about nature and life and I thought it would be great for my son to do the same. I take him out hiking and camping but I thought being around kids his own age would be cool. The problem is though that the Scout's official stance is a flat no atheists allowed policy. I was debating with myself and I dont know if I should say fuck it and just lie and say I am a good Bible fan or just not bother.

Aside from the fact that I completely disagree with the Scout higher ups and the religious stance they take, they are a good group for getting out to nature and building character. I don't want to keep that from my son and I was thinking that perhaps the policies put in place and opinions of the Scout heads doesn't necessarily trickle down to the local level. Thoughts?

_________________

short answer, do it. ill get a long answer in the morning

_________________
PSA: I am an overly sarcastic person. If you take me at my word, then i will most likely anger and offend you.

Fuck it, ill start on the longer answer now.

Pretty much with the religion thing, the short answer is that you are required to believe in something. It doesnt matter what it is(which, incidnely, has drawn criticism from some Christian group(lutheran church wisconsin synod, to name just one), all that you need to do is believe that there is some higher power(s) out there, even if it is one that does not interfere with matters on earth whatsoever(Deists, for one)
While as long as you dont say anything, no one will pay any mind to what you really believe(think, dont ask dont tell but not as bad), then there will be no issue, whatsoever. just keep in mind, at least in Boy Scouts(i want to say in cubbies as well, but i dont remember to be honest) that you(and your son for sure) that he will be reverent. (12th point of the scout law). if you and your son can do that, and mean honestly what you say and be able to live with it,then there is no reason why you shouldnt put your son in scouts.

If however, you cant do that, then i would seriously rethink the idea.

I am dedicated to the Scouting movement, and believe that it is for all kids, but a part of Scouting is meaning what you say, as part of your honour, and you should live by the Oath and Law in your daily life(a requirement for all ranks in Scouts)

(background in case you cared: Cub scout: 5 years. Scouting 7 years: Scouter 1 year and counting Order of the Arrow: over five years and counting. Eagle Scout, and Order of the Arrow Vigil Honor EDIT: i forgot, Venturer 1 year and counting)
Also, unless you plan on being a leader(which incidently, i would recommend), it doesnt really matter much what you personally believe, all that matters is what your son does.

_________________
PSA: I am an overly sarcastic person. If you take me at my word, then i will most likely anger and offend you.

Nice. Thank you. My parents were scout leaders and I wanted to be one too. I have been a serious outdoorsman for a long time and think I'd I have a lot to offer. I've taught him basic night nav, tracking and on and on. The problem with school is that the skills like those don't matter and I thought it would be sweet for him to be in a group where exactly what he's great at would be showcased. He has a few years because I'm skipping cubbies all together. I called and talked to local reps here and it looks like a joke. They actually don't hoke or camp at all here. They meet every week or two to play games. Not what I'm looking for.

I'm off to bed but I'll get back to this post in the morning.

_________________

i know this post is incomplete, but. if you were to skip cubs, i can understand that a bit, but i would highly recommend you to start him in the Webelos section of cub scouts, where he will work on gaining his arrow of light, and that is the one thing i would say is important moving on.

Side note, i dont even know if webelos is even considered part of cubs anymore, theyre trying to make it distinct, but at the same time part of cubbies.

_________________
PSA: I am an overly sarcastic person. If you take me at my word, then i will most likely anger and offend you.

I've been faking religious beliefs in certain circumstances for my whole life. I have the background so it's not hard to do, and I don't really mind it because being defiant and telling people what you think usually doesn't accomplish much. Take advantage of all the other opportunities that the Scouts have to offer. Aside from the actual belief issue, their basic religious values aren't too far off from good basic secular values, so it shouldn't be a stretch for you to deal with them. When a conflicting message comes up you can always talk to your kid about it afterward. Shouldn't be a big deal, imo.

I agree with this.

I hate doing it though Stuu. For example. Yesterday I went in to my orthodontist and out of the blue she starts telling me about her church and how my wife and I should go with her. Of course though when you have faith you can throw it in people's faces as much as you want but if you have no faith you better keep your mouth shut because anything you say is offensive. To some people the simple statement: "I don't have any faith" is offensive. So I just nodded and said yup yup to all of her "God willing" and "walk like Jesus" talk. It was very uncomfortable. My experience has been similar to yours in that if I do say I don't believe it gets worse because they want to "fix" me. "Why don't you believe?" "What moral compass can you have without the Bible?" and sooooooo on. It's very rude and presumptuous on their behalf but there is no changing it so I just zip my lip and nod a lot. I don't care who is religious or what those beliefs include, I just don't need them thrown in my face.

I simply don't understand how the level of disrespect they show to others when they do that doesn't even make a blip on their radar.

I always compare it to hockey fans. If I meet someone new I don't really think about what team they like or if they even like hockey. I end up inviting them over for a game and they show up wearing a Boston hat. For whatever reason I start feeling uncomfortable. That to me is how a religious person must feel when they find out I'm an athiest.

Now my religious friends here, don't take what I have said the wrong way. I have the utmost respect for you and your faith and your personal beliefs. My issue only starts when I am forced to have awkward "My faith is the bee's knees" conversations. It sucks pretty big. We all hate those religious door to door knockers and it's always like that for me. Like I said, sucky.

_________________

I was a scout for a long time and there's no doubt it was a positive influence in my childhood.
Hell, my orienteering skills I learned in scouting may have saved my life and the life of 2 others when we got lost 9500 feet up in the sierras.

Of course, it depends on the troop leadership etc., but I fully intend to have my boy in boy scouts and my girl just got started in girl scouts.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...

oh and for the religious stuff...you can find troops that are more secular than others.
Some will meet in a church and be primarily composed of members of that church (usually Mormons)...others, not so much. The variance between troops can be pretty big as far as that stuff goes, just ask around first.

In Utah it's hard core though...My sister and Brother-in-law left the Mormon church a few years back and they straight up kicked my nephew out of scouts citing his parents disbelief in God. Now that's utter bullshit but in Utah, the Scouts are pretty much a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mormon church.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...

Try beating them at their own game. Tell them that your brand of Christianity is WAY better than theirs, and God loves you more. If they ask for details, just tell them they wouldn't understand real faith like you do.

Okay that's probably not appropriate, but it'd be fun. As for the door knockers, if you know it's them, strip down to your underwear before you open the door. Then open the door with a big smile that immediately turns to shock, and then say 'oh! I was expecting someone else!' Chances are Mr. or Mrs. door knocker now wants nothing more than to get out of there.

_________________
This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

oh, trust me, i know exactly what you are talking about

(and this is coming from of of the more religious members here)

Those types of people annoy the hell out of me.

I am an Orthodox Christian (wel, catechumen but still). if youo want to ask about my faith, then you are free to do so, and i will answer to the best of my ability, or have you email a priest about it. Past that, I dont say anything about it, besides the way I conduct myself in my daily life.
The funny part, those same "christians" are always the first ones to claim that I am not a christian, and the catholics especially.

Anyways, that's kinda off topic

You don't have to fake being Christian, because being Christian isnt a requirement to be a scout. Like i said, all that must be true is that one needs to believe in some sort of deity, no matter what it is.

I would also suggest, if you are worried, not joining one based out of a church, rather one out of like a VFW, elks, or other such places. mabye even a school building.
(bigger post on scouts coming later, but i just wanted to adress this)

_________________
PSA: I am an overly sarcastic person. If you take me at my word, then i will most likely anger and offend you.

The pack I was a part of many moons ago was run out of the local fire station (it still is, actually). I don't remember EVER hearing ANYTHING religious at the meetings.

_________________

...To do my duty to God and my country
To obey the scout law...

There is a spiritual element to scouting although it depends on the troop how emphasized it.
It's almost always generic though and not religion specific (Except for the Mormon troops as I mentioned)

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...

Honestly, I never thought much about it, and it wasn't a key element in anything we did (I realize it's in the oath, but like I said, it wasn't a theme)

_________________

Also, I don't view the word "God" as inherently religious. It's a believe in a higher being, doesn't mean it has to be some whacked-out cult

_________________

I consider having to pledge an oath to perform duty to God inherently religious...whether that's how the oath was taught to you is another matter.
you consider all religions that believe in a God "whacked out cults"?
/confused

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...

Maybe I used too broad a stroke. I think that many religions that believe in god have their fair share of whacked out believers. A Christian scoffing at a cult like heaven's gate is hypocrisy, IMO, the same as it is for them to preach about a loving and accepting God, but that God will damn you if you're not part of THEIR religion (much the same as it is for the LGBT community to preach acceptance, but appear to look down on you if you're heterosexual and show indifference to their cause).

The oath wasn't taught to me like that, or if it was, I don't remember it. Regardless, it's about doing the right thing when nobody is looking.

_________________

The scouts can do what they want to with religion or not. It's a choice to become a part of it and the choice involves becoming a member of a group of people that strive to have the same morals/beliefs/etc... I am just like you DF, I completely respect peoples choice to believe what they want, and if I'm around them in their house/area/whatever i'm going to try my best to respect that with my actions etc. It's the ones that try spreading the "love" that annoy me because they lack respect for my choice in beliefs..

I was in the scouts for a little bit, and there wasn't any religious aspect and I probably would have stayed in if I wasn't so lazy.. lol. There's some great lessons they teach that aren't religious in nature and you keep that stuff through life.

You can always get out if you need to, it's not a lifelong bonding contract. Do your research, find the right one, and you'll love the experience.

_________________

When I was in as a kid the whole oath was just something I had to memorize. Nothing more honestly. I never even thought about it. It was like the pledge. I mean did I ever think about the word "god" in the dang thing or did I just mumble through it each morning at good old Lew Port? point is my troop never went through and emphasized it much. We talked about what each part meant but outside of learning it I never heard a peep about religion again, and it was held in the basement of the 1st Pres in Lewiston. I guess I don't take, and never took the religion side of the oath as very serious. Now as an adult though with a greater perspective and deeper well established beliefs it's a bit harder to fake it. I will have to think hard on it.

_________________