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YankeeInRaleigh
 Post subject: The health care mandate
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:04 am 
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So, I've heard lots and lots of people having serious problems with 'obamacare'. And the only objection I ever hear is about the mandate that everyone has to have health insurance, or they have to pay a fine.

Now...I understand this rubs people the wrong way.
1)people dont like to be told what to do. Especially by the government. Got it.
2)apparently it is at odds with parts of the constitution. The commerce clause? I'm not that familiar, but from what I understand it restrics gov from saying we have to purchase a certain product.

I understand both of those things. (at least partially) BUT...it seems to me our choices are between

1) The mandate: EVERYONE has health insurance of some sort. NO-ONE wanders into an emergency room and isnt able to pay. (this is excluding illegal immigrants. Not sure how that part of the equation gets solved, perhaps through some sort of quasi legal status, which would allow them to acquire health insurance of some form)

2) Plenty of people do NOT have health insurance. they're able to wander into an emergency room, get taken care of, wander on out and basically never have to pay anything ever. Us responsible citizens end up paying for those costs in higher taxes in some form or another.

So...i'm really not understanding the republican/libertarian opposition to this. It seems to me that by having the mandate, you're forcing people to be more responsible, and to not put that monetary burden on the people who ARE responsible.

Is it not better for everyone to share the financial load by everyone having health insurance, instead of some people paying NOTHING, and others paying more than their share?


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Squanto
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:25 am 
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As I generally understand the Libertarian position, it's pretty much the idea that they don't want to government telling them what to do. (A more cynical interpretation would be 'If people want to be stupid, let them be stupid and don't make me do something to counteract that.')

Honestly, I don't think the mandate holds up either. To government forcing people to buy something is questionable, even if that something is health insurance.

The good compromise would have been :
- Reorganize Medicare to clean up the fraud.
- Open Medicare up to everyone to buy in if they so chose to do so.
- No mandate.
- Allow people to purchase insurance across state lines.

In theory, the Republicans should LIKE this. It's free market, it's competition. People could buy insurance from wherever they wanted to, if they wanted to. Of course, the health care lobby wouldn't make as much money, so of course they objected to it.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Giving everyone free health care = good
Forcing everyone to buy health insurance from a private, for profit company under penalty of fine or jail = all kinds of fucked up nonsense


Simple enough?

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Last edited by YankeeInRaleigh on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:02 pm 
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So cross...you'd rather pay for the negligent people who don't bother to have insurance for themselves, than buy insurance which i'd bet my house on you have already provided for your family?

I thought you were against handouts and the like. Now you want to hand a bunch of irresponsible people free health care?


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:06 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
So cross...you'd rather pay for the negligent people who don't bother to have insurance for themselves, than buy insurance which i'd bet my house on you have already provided for your family?

I thought you were against handouts and the like. Now you want to hand a bunch of irresponsible people free health care?


No, I'm saying if the government feels the need to get involved and mandate this sort of thing it absolutely *must* be a single payer solution.
It's simply unconstitutional to force citizens to buy a commercial product from a private company.

And I never called anyone irresponsible or negligent. I'm not a dick. thanks.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
And I never called anyone irresponsible or negligent. I'm not a dick. thanks.

i think he was calling them that, not saying that you did.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:21 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
And I never called anyone irresponsible or negligent. I'm not a dick. thanks.

i think he was calling them that, not saying that you did.

I took it as projection. I apologize if that wasn't the case Yankee, but I suspect it was ;)

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
And I never called anyone irresponsible or negligent. I'm not a dick. thanks.

i think he was calling them that, not saying that you did.

I took it as projection. I apologize if that wasn't the case Yankee, but I suspect it was ;)


Paranoid much? No where did I assign those opinions to you, they are wholly my own.

because...(gasp) believe it or not, SOME of us liberals actually WORK, and PAY FOR OUR OWN SHIT. I dont like the thought of handouts, and i'm actually completely against welfare.

I'm TRYING (unsuccessfully because none of you right wingers will actually answer the question) to resolve the apparent conundrum that *should* arise from the libertarian mindset regarding the mandate. I GET IT, there is a clause in the constitution which makes it unconstitutional. Fine, thats really not what i'm asking. For one freaking second stop repeating that and actually think about what i'm asking. Dont you want people to take personal responsibility for their healthcare? I sure as fuck do, I dont want to pay for other people any more than necessary. I see this mandate as making complete sense because it forces those people to take care of their own costs, NOT being irresponsible and visiting the ER for their care.

From what i've heard from you over the years you are completely FOR people taking care of themselves, self sufficiency, ending the welfare state, etc etc. We completely agree on that, which makes it seem like your objection to the mandate is far more based on general obama hatred than some clause in the constitution.

You already have insurance, dont you? Then you'd be fine, and this wouldnt even affect you. AS LONG AS PEOPLE HAVE INSURANCE THEY ARE FINE. What the hell is the problem with this?

Bottom line, if you're a deadbeat, and want to sponge off society this is one less way you're capable of doing so. How come people on the right object to that!?


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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Noice Yankee! Very noice.


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:24 pm 
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And DAMMIT cross, if you bust out that damned "Relax francis" picture i WILL figure out how to slap someone via TCP/IP.

I'll do it....dammit.....


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Oh, and also, I completely reject the notion that considering societal mooches as irresponsible and negligent makes someone a dick. It makes them sick of supporting people who are irresponsible negligent mooches.


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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Tbf, there are some legitimate issues with the government being involved in health care, but let's face it, the right is making it out to be a monster when it isn't. They somehow believe it's easier to 'repair' the current system(which we all know the party of 'no' won't even attempt) than it is to iron out this one. Bottom line is they're against it mainly because it's a feather in the Dem's hat.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:45 pm 
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daz28 wrote:
Tbf, there are some legitimate issues with the government being involved in health care, but let's face it, the right is making it out to be a monster when it isn't. They somehow believe it's easier to 'repair' the current system(which we all know the party of 'no' won't even attempt) than it is to iron out this one. Bottom line is they're against it mainly because it's a feather in the Dem's hat.

winner winner chicken dinner. :whistle:

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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Cuz o' dat God damn Obaema, I caent shoot you two

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:28 am 
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Obama hasn't touched gun control laws.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:50 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
Dont you want people to take personal responsibility for their healthcare? I sure as fuck do, I dont want to pay for other people any more than necessary.

Yes, of course.
My argument is solely *if* a mandate is going to be imposed the only fair way to do it is via a single payer system.
Quote:
I see this mandate as making complete sense because it forces those people to take care of their own costs, NOT being irresponsible and visiting the ER for their care.

No, it's forces someone else to take care of their costs just via a government sanctioned avenue.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Well well.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/28/politics/ ... ?hpt=hp_t1


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Can someone answer me this? Why are Republicans saying they are pissed that they will be footing the bill now through taxes? I thought this mandate made people have to pay for their own shit. It doesn't completely take care of the tax burden but now people have to get insurance and pay for their own health care. I'm confused.

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:44 am 
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I think some of the fear, which I don't know how valid it is or not, is that the poor or non-working and non-tax paying get health care for free anyway. Now they will also get health INSURANCE for free, and even if they get a low paying job, many will opt to not buy the insurance since the 1% tax is SO FAR BELOW the likely cost of mandated insurance.

So besides the whole "insurance by gov't force" thing, some tax paying working people are afraid their premiums will rise to cover the cost of those getting health insurance that don't pay "their fair share" into the system - both non-workers and workers who choose the paltry 1% tax.


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