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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Michael Moore, is that you?

Our money paid to bail out GM and Chrysler right?
Since we have a democratic union loving president, part of that deal gave control of those companies to the UAW.
What did they do with our tax money and good faith?

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45gh ... erycontent

Fuck GM and Chrysler and fuck the UAW.

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:35 pm 
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and yet, GM and chrysler reported huge gains last month and has been steadily returning from the dead.

and how people forget. there were two bailouts, and if im not mistaken, the first bailout was received in 2008. our democratic union loving president wasnt in office yet.

best yet, the UAW is expanding into non auto areas, unionizing other companies. its glorious.

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:41 pm 
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oh, and heres an article for shits and giggles.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... nd-chance/

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:51 pm 
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yeah, it's funny how when you restructure under bankruptcy, close factories, shed pension obligations and fire people you magically become profitable again.

Usually private companies don't need tax dollars to do that, and I've always been pissed about the bailouts even under Bush, I'm sure you can go back and find copious evidence of that here.

VW, which makes great cars people want to, and are buying and are steadily increasing their market share...they open a new factory in Tennessee.
They've never been unionized.
The UAW is pushing hard with their usual strong arm tactics to get US VW factories unionized.
Can you tell me with a straight face that a multinational corporation based in a fucking socialist country with a brand new factory in the US, is committing the kind of injustices against their workers that would require the intervention of organized labor?

Fuck no you can't.
It's a political and money power grab and it means jack shit for the "workers".

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:05 am 
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except you keep missing the original point to go off in some other direction.

you said michigan is dying and its the unions fault. and its absolutely not the truth. smith closed down factories at the height of the company. THEN the company began its slow death. it wasnt the unions, it was a money grab by smith and GM and it backfired horrifically. tell me again how thats the unions fault?

you cant.

i dont give a shit about VW, if they decide to build here, like mazda did, the factory will be unionized, as it should be.

gutting workers rights and pension plans, and their right to collective bargain is horseshit. especially when you didnt run on the platform of taking away those rights. walker signed his toe tag the minute he re-wrote the states constitution. and good riddance.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:06 am 
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XC, here's where you and I really don't see eye to eye. Unions were formed to protect workers from dangerous working conditions and to protect their wages.

The working conditions are now protected at the state and federal levels; however, it doesn't change the fact that while companies are grossing billions in profits each year, their employees no longer have a chance at the American dream.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:54 am 
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I grew up in a union family. Both my dad and grandpa were union reps. For those that think unions are out of date you are dead wrong. Yes there are federal laws that govern working conditions and hours but without the union in a factory for example, the workers have little defense against some tactics they try to use. For example, if the profit margin can be increased by firing...wait..."laying off", an employee that has worked there for 15 years and hiring a new guy for way less, they will sometimes take some small thing the person did and try to railroad them with it. That is why the union rep is important. They go in and fight for the men/women. If you think unions aren't important then you either haven't experienced first hand what owners are willing to do to increase their profits or you have way too much faith in people to do what is right versus what is greedy. My dad could tell you about men getting fired and replaced with some 20 year old, benefits getting cut and cut again or pensions being stolen through some shitty loop hole.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:14 am 
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For those that think unions are out of date you are dead wrong.

i don't know that i'd say dead wrong, but i would say some unions are way too strong and take advantage of everything, like the UAW and the teacher's union. they refuse to be fair and just assume they should always get more more more without doing anything more. and ask them to sacrifice something? end of the world.

i just think it boils down to no one respects the others because they're too busy worrying about number 1. management doesn't worry about the employees in total and feels no connection to them, doesn't care what happens except for the bottom line. this generation of workers realize that, believe management will get rid of them whenever they can save a dime, and they have no loyalty. you can see that because my generation is expected to have like 10 different career-type jobs in their life before they retire. 40 years ago, people worked for ONE company, maybe two.

it's a vicious cycle fueled by a lack of responsibility and respect for the common man. i think it started in upper management for sure. but both sides have their faults at this point and i'd say equal blame.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:54 am 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
you said michigan is dying and its the unions fault. and its absolutely not the truth. smith closed down factories at the height of the company. THEN the company began its slow death. it wasnt the unions, it was a money grab by smith and GM and it backfired horrifically. tell me again how thats the unions fault?


How is it the unions fault?

Unionized GM fired over 35,000 employees between 2006 and 2008. Non-unionized Toyota laid off zero.
During that time GM was losing almost $2,500 in profitability per vehicle and Toyota was making almost $1,500 per vehicle. The difference in profitability is directly correlated to bloated union contracts and the difference in profitability is directly correlated to firing workers out of financial necessity.

But yeah, unions are good for workers. As long as they can hang onto a job in the company they're killing.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
But yeah, unions are good for workers. As long as they can hang onto a job in the company they're killing.


That's a really good blanket statement. Glad things are so black and white in your world. :roll:

Edit: My point is basically that some unions have gotten way too strong and have damaged companies but you can't draw that out to the conclusion that unions must be stopped all together. Shitty unions have gone so far in their demands as to hurt companies, true. On the flip side of that, unions keep workers from getting shafted all over the country. My father's company in Grand Island is non-union and recently they decided that they would cut their health plans. They spend 40 million a year on them and that was too much. then again they pay the CEO 39 million a year but instead of putting a stop to raises and bonuses for the top crust of the company they implemented (overnight) the new policy that if you want to keep you health coverage you have to pay 3,000 bucks a year. These are guys making 16 bucks an hour. There was no way to prepare for it and no discussion. It is complete unchecked greed. The company is doing great, turning huge profits but they wanted to squeeze out more. The way they did it is to fuck the workers over because heaven forbid they don't make massive bonuses this year.

Yes unions can be greedy but they can also protect people from getting completely raped by greedy CEO's

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Read my previous response to daz...I'm not saying all unions are bad and should be killed. Quite the opposite really.

But we're talking about Scott Walker and him going after public unions. The pro-union arguments being made here almost universally do not apply to the public sector.

and for the record, the UAW has been materially destructive for the US automotive industry. That's undeniable really.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Read my previous response to daz...I'm not saying all unions are bad and should be killed. Quite the opposite really.

But we're talking about Scott Walker and him going after public unions. The pro-union arguments being made here almost universally do not apply to the public sector.

and for the record, the UAW has been materially destructive for the US automotive industry. That's undeniable really.

Roger. I agree. Just wanted to drop my two cents that it's a grey area when it comes to unions. A lot of people would do away completely with them and that would leave no protection for workers from greedy fat cats.

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
you said michigan is dying and its the unions fault. and its absolutely not the truth. smith closed down factories at the height of the company. THEN the company began its slow death. it wasnt the unions, it was a money grab by smith and GM and it backfired horrifically. tell me again how thats the unions fault?


How is it the unions fault?

Unionized GM fired over 35,000 employees between 2006 and 2008. Non-unionized Toyota laid off zero.
During that time GM was losing almost $2,500 in profitability per vehicle and Toyota was making almost $1,500 per vehicle. The difference in profitability is directly correlated to bloated union contracts and the difference in profitability is directly correlated to firing workers out of financial necessity.

But yeah, unions are good for workers. As long as they can hang onto a job in the company they're killing.


you are cherry picking stats now. and solely blaming the UAW. which is false. GM become the richest company in the world, and GM laid off 30,000 unionized workers. THEN GM took a nosedive. clearly, if GM became the richest company in the world with unionized workers, there is no way you can blame the union for the decline of GM. no way.

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:13 pm 
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My two cents...

North Carolina does not allow collective bargaining. Sworn police employees with the rank of Sgt and below can voluntarily pay dues to be a member of their local police officers' association. There are never ending instances that either the agency or the local gov't attempted to basically break the Fair Labor Standards Act in various ways. Every time, this non-union organization was able to consult with their attorney and win, whether it took months or years, in court or out of court. I've been directly involved in several of these issues. Even though many officers would love to have the state sign a pro-collective bargaining bill (while many would not), the current system has succeeded without bloated dues, power mongering union reps, and forcing officers to join an organization that may actually fight against their interests.

Based on my own experiences I can't see unions as being as necessary as they claim.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:54 pm 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:

you are cherry picking stats now. and solely blaming the UAW. which is false. GM become the richest company in the world, and GM laid off 30,000 unionized workers. THEN GM took a nosedive. clearly, if GM became the richest company in the world with unionized workers, there is no way you can blame the union for the decline of GM. no way.


The fall of GM had a lot more than greedy unions to blame. How about focusing too much on trucks and suvs while gas prices soar? The CEO taking a 40% pay increase while the company loses nearly 15 million a year? Having way too many brands of vehicles that were similar? Lobbying against higher fuel standards while Japan jumped into the hybrid market a decade before them? Global financial crisis impacting loans and customer purchasing? Foreign competition, many of which produce a higher quality vehicle?

The unions were only one part of that giant shit storm that hit GM.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Lobbying against higher fuel standards while Japan jumped into the hybrid market a decade before them?

fun fact: bill clinton tasked the big three with making a fuel efficient car and told toyota they couldn't join the task force. toyota got pissed. now they have the prius, which is the best all around car when taking the cost into effect. chevy volts i think are the best overall.


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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:

you are cherry picking stats now. and solely blaming the UAW. which is false. GM become the richest company in the world, and GM laid off 30,000 unionized workers. THEN GM took a nosedive. clearly, if GM became the richest company in the world with unionized workers, there is no way you can blame the union for the decline of GM. no way.


The fall of GM had a lot more than greedy unions to blame. How about focusing too much on trucks and suvs while gas prices soar? The CEO taking a 40% pay increase while the company loses nearly 15 million a year? Having way too many brands of vehicles that were similar? Lobbying against higher fuel standards while Japan jumped into the hybrid market a decade before them? Global financial crisis impacting loans and customer purchasing? Foreign competition, many of which produce a higher quality vehicle?

The unions were only one part of that giant shit storm that hit GM.


im talking about the 80s, with GM laying off 30,000 souls in flint, michigan ALONE while the company stood on the top of the mountain.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Squanto
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:40 am 
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PuckSniperPensel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:42 am 
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Anyone here work in a union? Anyone ever dealt with unions?

The trade show workers that are unionized at the Javits Convention Center in NYC where we set up for boat shows are the most entitled, lazy, POS workers I've ever been around in my entire life.

Most of them sit on fucking golf carts, eating and reading the newspaper. The rest of them walk aimlessly around. It takes them days to setup a booth that we could have done in 6 hours. They blow, and they don't deserve the compensation they receive.

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