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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:42 am 
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Aww, did those poor, tiny, unorganized unions get beat at their own game? Shame.
Maybe if Obama or the DNC did anything at all to help things woud have been different but I guess this is what Biden meant in 2008 when he told big labor "we owe you".

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Squanto
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:04 am 
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PuckSniperPensel wrote:
Anyone here work in a union? Anyone ever dealt with unions?

The trade show workers that are unionized at the Javits Convention Center in NYC where we set up for boat shows are the most entitled, lazy, POS workers I've ever been around in my entire life.

Most of them sit on fucking golf carts, eating and reading the newspaper. The rest of them walk aimlessly around. It takes them days to setup a booth that we could have done in 6 hours. They blow, and they don't deserve the compensation they receive.


Yes. I participated in a union vote to organize International Association of EMTs and Paramedics Local 394 for Twin City Ambulance. At the time, I was making $7 an hour as a NYS certified EMT. That's 6 months of specialized training. NYS Paramedics have basically an associates degree. They were making $12 an hour, even with experience.

We were regularly scheduled for 48 hours a week, 4 12 hour shifts. We'd commonly be held over for an extra 6 hours, often creating 18 on / 6 off /12 on situations, which are unsafe for workers and the patients they're asked to care for. Vacations were regularly approved, and revoked the day before they were to start. Certain individuals were basically exempt from rules and discipline because they were pals with the managing family. Rules were applied inconsistently if at all. Employee turnover was extremely high because of burnout. We were paying 95% of our health insurance premiums, and the insurance coverage was poor.

The year before we voted the union in, the family who owns Twin City profited $8M. Profited. On 230 employees. We lost employees to Mighty Taco because they were starting at $8.50/hr with better benefits.

After the union, wages are now stable, and more in line with what is being paid to these positions nationally, when adjusted for the area. Rules were applied equitably. A process was put in place for people who felt they were treated unfairly. The company can no longer schedule people in ways that put the worker or patient in danger because of fatigue. Good employees now stay because they are treated fairly instead of getting experience to go to another company. Benefits are reasonable.

Oh, and the company makes more money now than they did before.

Please, tell me again how 'all unions are bad', and 'all union workers are lazy'. Because that's fucking bullshit

There are some REALLY shitty unions out there. There are also some REALLY shitty companies that treat their employees like cattle; a commodity to be used and abused.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:12 am 
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All great arguments that don't apply to public sector unions.
It's not a minor distinction since John Q taxpayer is picking up the pension tab for the next 100 years.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:01 am 
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Some criticism of unions is legit. I simply object to the blanket characterization of all unions as bad.

Plus, NYC unions are notoriously shitty and have been forever. Not exactly the best barometer.

Part of my problem with the public union criticisms is that the public union and governments MUTUALLY AGREED to some of the contracts, yet the unions take the blame when the deal turns out shitty. Kind of a double standard.

Yes, greedy unions should be shat upon. Unions that try to extort should be shat upon. Not all of them are like this.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:29 am 
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That statement sounds reasonable if you consider "the government" to be some non-partisan, union neutral entity.
But in places like where you live and where I live, "the government" is skewed heavily towards a particular political party that is happiest when it's giving up the farm in collective bargaining.

This is what the Democrats hand in hand with the public sector unions have brought upon themselves. The taxpayers simply can't do it anymore. The gig is up.

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ksquier89
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:59 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
This is what the Democrats hand in hand with the public sector unions have brought upon themselves. The taxpayers simply can't do it anymore. The gig is up.

Baltimore here. Checking in to say that the unions we have here are corrupt as fuck. We have had one conservative Governor in the past 75 some odd years. Our shipping unions, for one, are completely untouchable and are known safe havens for illicit drug importation. See The Wire. I like to say that the wire is not all of Baltimore, and it's not, but believe me when I say almost 100% of their stories are true.


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
PuckSniperPensel wrote:
Anyone here work in a union? Anyone ever dealt with unions?

The trade show workers that are unionized at the Javits Convention Center in NYC where we set up for boat shows are the most entitled, lazy, POS workers I've ever been around in my entire life.

Most of them sit on fucking golf carts, eating and reading the newspaper. The rest of them walk aimlessly around. It takes them days to setup a booth that we could have done in 6 hours. They blow, and they don't deserve the compensation they receive.


Yes. I participated in a union vote to organize International Association of EMTs and Paramedics Local 394 for Twin City Ambulance. At the time, I was making $7 an hour as a NYS certified EMT. That's 6 months of specialized training. NYS Paramedics have basically an associates degree. They were making $12 an hour, even with experience.

We were regularly scheduled for 48 hours a week, 4 12 hour shifts. We'd commonly be held over for an extra 6 hours, often creating 18 on / 6 off /12 on situations, which are unsafe for workers and the patients they're asked to care for. Vacations were regularly approved, and revoked the day before they were to start. Certain individuals were basically exempt from rules and discipline because they were pals with the managing family. Rules were applied inconsistently if at all. Employee turnover was extremely high because of burnout. We were paying 95% of our health insurance premiums, and the insurance coverage was poor.

The year before we voted the union in, the family who owns Twin City profited $8M. Profited. On 230 employees. We lost employees to Mighty Taco because they were starting at $8.50/hr with better benefits.

After the union, wages are now stable, and more in line with what is being paid to these positions nationally, when adjusted for the area. Rules were applied equitably. A process was put in place for people who felt they were treated unfairly. The company can no longer schedule people in ways that put the worker or patient in danger because of fatigue. Good employees now stay because they are treated fairly instead of getting experience to go to another company. Benefits are reasonable.

Oh, and the company makes more money now than they did before.

Please, tell me again how 'all unions are bad', and 'all union workers are lazy'. Because that's fucking bullshit

There are some REALLY shitty unions out there. There are also some REALLY shitty companies that treat their employees like cattle; a commodity to be used and abused.

It's another right-wing media truism: unions=bad. Why? Because the rich own the media. Who has the most to lose to unions? The rich. Who controls the media? The rich. So I don't trust media portrayals. Stripping the power of unions is just like stripping the power of government in one major way: it's taking away the power from institutions ANYONE can belong to. Only the rich can get the best eductation and training, and only the rich can buy stocks to become part of corporations. So it's all hand-in-hand. Take away schools, take away unions, take away government power, take away personal injury lawsuits to protect individuals, and then only let people live "on their own merrits", and call that American.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:19 pm 
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We're talking about public sector unions....

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:21 am 
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i used to work in a union.

i was 16, i hadnt a clue what was going on.

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:56 am 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
My two cents...

North Carolina does not allow collective bargaining. Sworn police employees with the rank of Sgt and below can voluntarily pay dues to be a member of their local police officers' association. There are never ending instances that either the agency or the local gov't attempted to basically break the Fair Labor Standards Act in various ways. Every time, this non-union organization was able to consult with their attorney and win, whether it took months or years, in court or out of court. I've been directly involved in several of these issues. Even though many officers would love to have the state sign a pro-collective bargaining bill (while many would not), the current system has succeeded without bloated dues, power mongering union reps, and forcing officers to join an organization that may actually fight against their interests.

Based on my own experiences I can't see unions as being as necessary as they claim.


I'll say it again, unions aren't necessary to accomplish what FLSA has determined to be fair working conditions. I've been through the process of fighting my dept. and the city over various issues, hoping one day for collective bargaining rights, and then realizing that union representation and all it's drawbacks aren't needed to stand up for the right thing. I guess that's the big question though...are you fighting for the "right thing"? If you are, FLSA has your back and you'll win with no more than competant legal representation and determination. If you're fighting for BS like break time and needless "perks" (ie, wanting to be a lazy half-ass worker), then unions are necessary to win these battles through political power mongering that doesn't focus on the real issue.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Here's my take on the UAW.

My grandfather worked for GM for 30 years. He retired at 50 something, and has lived within his means but comfortable ever since. He raised 7 kids on a union job and solely his income. That being said, their house cost $10k; his mortgage was $80/mo. He's 75 now.

My uncle is an engineer for GM. He makes good money, but he's got a bachelor's degree and has been there forever.

My aunt got an associate's degree in accounting, and now makes $30/hr placing a washer on a radiator fan wherever a computer tells her it's out of balance. It's a job that could be automated by a robot for probably two years worth of her wages. It wont be because of a union. Two points to this part of the story:
1 - She started at $20 an hour. Entirely too much, IMO, for someone putting a fucking washer on a radiator fan.
2 - The union is the only reason she still has a job in this shitty economy.

My brother got a job working at GM out of high school. I don't know what he did, but he was making $14.50/hr. When the UAW and GM renegotiated their contract, a bunch of people needed to be laid off (without the option to come back). They asked for volunteers...if you volunteered, you would get a $40k payout. Obviously my brother took it.

While I have family members that have greatly benefited from the UAW, I feel like there are many union workers that were greatly overpaid (see: my aunt and brother). The work was much more dangerous when my grandfather worked there. I can understand both arguments, that the unions ensure fair wages, but also that the unions sap the life out of a company.

When a company proves it is unable to maintain a competitive edge, like GM has in its refusal to genuinely offer more fuel efficient options, I feel like it deserves to die. The new 8 speed transmission isn't a "new" invention, for fuck's sake, semis have been using transmissions with 10+ gears for like 10-15 years or more.

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