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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Rutledge222 wrote:
I feel as if I should clarify. I do believe in micro evolution because it is possible and happens all the time. Another thing I will state is that I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of the world being as old as you say it is because I believe that God set things in motion but when is up for debate. I also think that it is possible the big bang happened but God set it in motion. I think it was daz that mentioned it, but I think it's true that science and religion coexist with each other and do compliment each other but sometimes people get so caught up in one or the other that they refuse to see the other aspect of it as well.

I was reading up on this a bit, and some creationist believe the Earth was created with the appearance of age. I'm not sure I'd go along with that, but it is certainly possible. I wouldn't want it taught in schools, because it's against the Establishment clause.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Isn't Creationism a part of the Bible?

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daz28
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:01 am 
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BlueandYellow wrote:
daz28 wrote:
Hopefully we can keep this as an argument and not a holy war.

Aw screw it, let's turn it into holy wars....


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Rutledge222
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:05 am 
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Well I mean one thing it states in the bible is that before God created the world, the world itself was already in actual existence but it did not have life and it was essentially just a clump of mass.

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daz28
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:06 am 
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BlueandYellow wrote:
Isn't Creationism a part of the Bible?

Genesis.


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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:50 am 
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double post


Last edited by PatGreen on Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:22 am 
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i am going to put in my two cents and as the ecology and evolutionary biology expert here, i just want to point out a couple issues i see. and a couple other devil's advocate points.

i follow the statement below every day. it's how i can be a scientist and a Christian, and still be credible and scientific with other people in my field.
religion without science is stupid, science without religion is lame.

BlueandYellow wrote:
Evolution is a fact. It's not a theory.

unfortunately, it's not...i work in it every day. while it's "fact" that adaptations result in physical departures from previous forms, there is a lot that we just don't understand and can't make sense of because of the stochasticity of genealogy and other factors, including environmental and regional differences.

BlueandYellow wrote:
Creationism is absolutely 100% false, it's been proven false, it's false, false, false. It shouldn't be taught in schools purely for the sake of making people "Skeptical". Being "skeptical" about things isn't always great, especially when you're being skeptical about FACT.

here's the problem...you're wrong. we absolutely cannot prove that creationism is false. we could prove that humans have changed, and that our present form is not how we first inhabited the planet. but most christians are not the ones that believe we were put here like we are now. there's a theory out there (i can't remember the name) that basically states God putting things on the planet was like a ball sitting on the hill and he gave it a little push (environmental triggers, etc) and evolution is the ball rolling down the hill.

another big deal is that we have not replicated the primordial soup theory- how life began. Miller and Urey did their best and so did Fox, but LIFE was not created.

secondarily, being skeptical about FACT is how we have gotten to where we are. Galileo questioned the FACT of the catholic church with gravity and many other things. Thomson had an atomic model theory that was questioned by Rutherford. Rutherfords' was questioned by Bohr, and here we are, with our electrons in energy levels surrounding the nucleus of an atom that contains protons and neutrons instead of a nucleus with everything packed in. Hawking has improved on Einstein's brilliant work, all of which was considered FACT. lastly, newton and hugyens thought that light dispersed as a particle and wave, respectively, when later it took a combination of the greatest minds in the world to prove that light is incredibly unique and actually disperses as BOTH a particle and wave. I believe max plank, einstein, and niels bohr all were part of that collaboration, too.

my main point is that we learn things when fact is questioned. it's proven within science, within religion vs science, and even general education. if you tested for it, you'd find that experienced teachers have a better handle on their subject material if they have allowed the students to ask difficult questions and answered them. questioning fact breeds knowledge, leading to NEW fact, or a stronger base for previous fact to stand on.

peteythedancingsabre wrote:
It's an analysis of a set of facts in relation to one another. The theory of evolution is made up of facts.

the problem is because of sampling methods, inconsistencies of patterns, and different types of evolution, including perceived "de-evolution", like whales coming from semi-aquatic or terrestrial precursors, that the facts that are the figurative legs the theory of evolution stands on are not concrete, like that of gravity- a constant. the issues here is that we cannot generate a stable, consistent, strong dataset that PROVES evolution. we have many, many, many things that suggest it, hell- even pretty much guarantees it- but we are unable to prove it.

all theories are made up of facts. remember spontaneous generation? that was a theory made up of facts, too. a theory is a lot like a ball on top of a jenga tower- sooner or later, someone pulls that bottom piece out, and then the ball rolls off. it's not unrealistic to think that Pythagorean's theorum breaks down someday. some thing we have all banked on for generations, just GONE like that. i don't have the capability to imagine how or when that could happen, but that's the point, isn't it?


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:36 am 
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Pat

As a scientist, I appreciate your rigorous examination of this scientific theory all these great minds have worked on.

Now take that same rigor and examine the bible/religious teachings, and answer this: Do they belong in a science classroom? Are any of them experimentally provable/disprovable in any way? If not...should they be taught to students in a SCIENCE class, instead of say...at church, or in a theology class?


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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:25 pm 
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i was not arguing creationism vs evolution at all and it was not my intention to. i just like to make sure both sides get due weight and consideration, in order for those who lack specialized knowledge, so they can form their own opinions based on what is KNOWN and what is INFERRED. the arguments for evolution in this topic have been exemplary and well researched- i didn't have anything of value to add to them. specifically petey explaining how the word "theory" is often misunderstood. that is one of my main points when i am attacked from the Christian population for discussing ecosystems and, undeniably, evolution-based traits. i just wanted to make sure that people know, that even within our (you and i, ecological scientists) community, we acknowledge that there ARE inconsistencies that we have not proven yet.

do i think that creationism should be taught in a public school? no, i don't. but i also know that most people coming out of school don't know anything about biology or evolution anyways. I'd rather they just drop BOTH items out of the curriculum and talk about other things that are not talked about enough, like chemistry, the human body and processes, ecosystems, and anything else. it's my opinion that we shortchange our youth so badly in science and math that it's easy to teach them MORE and still get around having to teach any evolution.

am i saying evolution is wrong? not at all. i'm saying it's a hot button issue that very few people really understand and we won't be losing anything by just ignoring it for now.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:37 pm 
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If we know humans existed before Creationists thought they were created, how does Creationism have any weight???

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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:38 pm 
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And Galileo didn't question fact. He questioned a lie from the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church hated free thinkers back then.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Wow. I'm not going to sit here and try to educate people on the different meanings of the word 'theory', the fact that evolution has been proved beyond a shred of doubt, or the polar opposites between the scientific process and using fucking magic to explain anything you don't understand. I also won't brutally rip apart the straw man smoke and mirrors type arguments that are pitched up in favor of intelligent design time and time again....because it is both futile and a exhausting.

At the end of the day our country is a secular nation with laws established to afford freedoms both for and from religion. Folk lore has it's place in historical classes that are framed with context and religious classes that are framed by perspective. Science has it's place in classes where the scientific method and depth of information are presented to show both how the bedrock facts of science were extablished and tested while also providing context to new cutting edge studies. I'm not saying one can't have personal faith while being a scientist. What I am saying is that the story of creation has never stood up to peer reviewed study or the scientific method....therefore it is excluded from being in the science family.....and by default doesn't have a place in the science classroom.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Einstein's actual quote was :

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

He also wrote :

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

There are portions of every scientific discipline that are still theoretical. That doesn't mean that the portions that are proven to be true shouldn't be taught.

The difference between evolution, and creationism is simple.

Evolution: "This is what happened. Here is the scientific evidence that we have to back up the idea. There are some things that are still incomplete, but that's something we're continuing to scientifically study and fill in the blanks."

Creationism : "This is what happened. Here is the book, written thousands of years ago, and modified countless times, that tells us what happened. We don't question this book, even if it contradicts itself. What it says is right and should not be questioned."

Which one do you want YOUR kids to learn? I'll stick with science.

Also, the 'which religion' point is a great one. Different holy books have different stories about what happened. Should a child brought up under religion A be forced by the state to learn what religion B thinks happened?

Science in the schools. Religion in the church. Keep it separate.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Wasting your time on correcting cherry picked, out of context, miss-represented quotes/facts/information from creationist supporters is beyond a waste of time. It's like fighting smoke from a camp fire. Just move away and get on with your day. Religious organizations have done a lot of work and spent a lot of money on re-writing history, miss-quoting scientists/political leaders and trying to create the illusion that there is a gray area on this in the scientific community. There isn't.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
Einstein's actual quote was :

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

i'm allowed to cherry pick quotes :D


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:38 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
Squanto wrote:
Einstein's actual quote was :

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

i'm allowed to cherry pick quotes :D


Bastard. :hand:

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
Wasting your time on correcting cherry picked, out of context, miss-represented quotes/facts/information from creationist supporters is beyond a waste of time. It's like fighting smoke from a camp fire. Just move away and get on with your day. Religious organizations have done a lot of work and spent a lot of money on re-writing history, miss-quoting scientists/political leaders and trying to create the illusion that there is a gray area on this in the scientific community. There isn't.

i have a feeling you might be talking about me. even if you're not, i'm going to just say it, like i pretty much did.

evolution is real, it makes sense, we see evidence all the time. the grey area is not whether or not it's true, it's that unfortunately, we do not have 100% proof to say "here, this is the chain of logic, none of the steps taken to get to this conclusion are questionable."

it's similar to the global warming debate. most of the time it's not a question if it's real or not, it's how big of an impact humans have made, which changes things pretty significantly as far as what we are responsible for.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:42 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
Squanto wrote:
Einstein's actual quote was :

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

i'm allowed to cherry pick quotes :D


No argument from me. :)


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:46 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
Displaced Fan wrote:
Wasting your time on correcting cherry picked, out of context, miss-represented quotes/facts/information from creationist supporters is beyond a waste of time. It's like fighting smoke from a camp fire. Just move away and get on with your day. Religious organizations have done a lot of work and spent a lot of money on re-writing history, miss-quoting scientists/political leaders and trying to create the illusion that there is a gray area on this in the scientific community. There isn't.

i have a feeling you might be talking about me. even if you're not, i'm going to just say it, like i pretty much did.

evolution is real, it makes sense, we see evidence all the time. the grey area is not whether or not it's true, it's that unfortunately, we do not have 100% proof to say "here, this is the chain of logic, none of the steps taken to get to this conclusion are questionable."

it's similar to the global warming debate. most of the time it's not a question if it's real or not, it's how big of an impact humans have made, which changes things pretty significantly as far as what we are responsible for.



No man, honestly you are the only one on that side of the fence here that sounds intelligent and tries to see reality. You have your beliefs but you don't let them blind you. I mean....i think you are wrong :lol: but at least we have mutual respect. I saw Squanto correcting quotes and just rolled my eyes. The mis-quoting and quoting out of context are commonn tactics of the creationist argument and I was talking of the more broad debate.

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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:54 pm 
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i like to imagine my Jesus with a tuxedo T-shirt... Because it says I'm formal, but I like to party and I want my Jesus to party because I like to party

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