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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Why not throw in the Easter bunny as well, because you'll find the same amount of scientific proof. This reeks of partisanship, and church-state relations.

Supporters of the law say its goal is to encourage healthy skepticism among students. “Critical thinking, analysis fosters good science,” Robin Zimmer, a biotechnology consultant and affiliate of a creationist organization, wrote in the Nashville Tennessean in March.

Now how is learning something faith based going to foster critical thinking???????? I think it fosters, "I don't care what facts you have, I'll believe what they want me to believe". Seriously? I'm fine with anyone being skeptical, but at least have some means to back up WHY your skeptical.

Why aren't they teaching this too, then: When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Quran does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Quran says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).


http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Oh ya, in before, "what do I care what happens in Tennessee".


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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:56 pm 
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welcome to the USA. where the bible belt takes one step forward, before leaping backwards.

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BagBoy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:26 pm 
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I have a feeling there is not going to be any Quran discussions in these creation classes!

But in all seriousness, isn't this a blatant violation of the seperation of church and state (assuming we're talking about public schools here)?

Grievous Constitutional violations aside, they shouldn't trust government employees to educate their children about creationism. They should only trust their church to do that properly.

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:43 pm 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
welcome to the USA. where the bible belt takes one step forward, before leaping backwards.

A 2010 Gallup poll found that four out of 10 Americans believe God created humans in their present form about 10,000 years ago.

I guess what this poll shows is that you should consider at least 1 in 4 people as fucking idiots. Even if you don't believe in evolution, you'd still have to wonder where a 160,000 year old human skull came from, right?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... t-homo-sap


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Skyline_BNR34
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:56 pm 
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For every "scientific fact" we find, we can find something in the Bible to disprove it and for everything in the bible you can use science to do the same, so what are we to truly believe.

Before calling someone a fucking idiot for their beliefs, let them get taught both, and let them choose what to believe in.

Science hasn't proved everything and neither has religion. But if someone believes, don't try and put them down for what they believe in.

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:24 pm 
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Skyline_BNR34 wrote:
For every "scientific fact" we find, we can find something in the Bible to disprove it and for everything in the bible you can use science to do the same, so what are we to truly believe.

Before calling someone a fucking idiot for their beliefs, let them get taught both, and let them choose what to believe in.

Science hasn't proved everything and neither has religion. But if someone believes, don't try and put them down for what they believe in.

Hold the fuck on, if you're saying I said anyone is a fucking idiot for believing in creationism, then suck a ...

I said, and anyone on these boards with a brain can see, anyone who believes people have only been around only 10k years, yet is shown a 160k year old human skull is an idiot.


As for your point before the stupid, off base personal attack, here's the issue, You could teach a zillion faith based things, and then let them decide. These things could include the Easter bunny, Santa clause, The Mayan calender, ALL of the religious tomes(not just the bible), etc.

Bottom line is you're supposed to keep religion out of public schools. As bagboy said, you learn that at church. No one is saying people shouldn't learn religion(just not in public skool), nor is anyone saying to put anyone down for their beliefs. Although I guess it is your right to stretch shit by ridiculous leaps and bounds on the interwebs.


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Rutledge222
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Evolution is still a theory... schools teach it like its fact... its not....
Creationism is a theory.... schools should teach it as such ... regardless of your belief in the Bible or God or whatever.

Theories are theories my friends.... let the students decide for themselves what they want to believe...

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Skyline_BNR34
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:05 pm 
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daz28 wrote:
Skyline_BNR34 wrote:
For every "scientific fact" we find, we can find something in the Bible to disprove it and for everything in the bible you can use science to do the same, so what are we to truly believe.

Before calling someone a fucking idiot for their beliefs, let them get taught both, and let them choose what to believe in.

Science hasn't proved everything and neither has religion. But if someone believes, don't try and put them down for what they believe in.

Hold the fuck on, if you're saying I said anyone is a fucking idiot for believing in creationism, then suck a ...

I said, and anyone on these boards with a brain can see, anyone who believes people have only been around only 10k years, yet is shown a 160k year old human skull is an idiot.


As for your point before the stupid, off base personal attack, here's the issue, You could teach a zillion faith based things, and then let them decide. These things could include the Easter bunny, Santa clause, The Mayan calender, ALL of the religious tomes(not just the bible), etc.

Bottom line is you're supposed to keep religion out of public schools. As bagboy said, you learn that at church. No one is saying people shouldn't learn religion(just not in public skool), nor is anyone saying to put anyone down for their beliefs. Although I guess it is your right to stretch shit by ridiculous leaps and bounds on the interwebs.

It wasn't a personal attack on you, I just don't think anyone should call anyone stupid for their beliefs. Some beliefs obviously should be considered stupid, but the creationism and evolution argument is always a touchy one.

Basically I was saying teach both and let people decide what they want to believe in is my argument.

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Rutledge222 wrote:
Evolution is still a theory... schools teach it like its fact... its not....
Creationism is a theory.... schools should teach it as such ... regardless of your belief in the Bible or God or whatever.

Theories are theories my friends.... let the students decide for themselves what they want to believe...

Here's the problem, WHO'S religions are we going to teach? Shall we waste a few years of high school teaching students the precepts of all the worlds religions, so the students can decide which one they like? I don't think so. Find your spirituality on your own, not in a public school you are REQUIRED to attend. Our education system is already garbage, and teaching various religions would send it right down the toilet.

Also, NEVER should things that are basically proven wrong be taught. That poll showed that even though carbon dating(pretty much an indisputable scientific fact) proves humans have been around for longer than 10k years, someone is still teaching them it, and they stand firm in their belief. I understand that MANY things are theory, but we have to try to have a consensus on some scientific facts. No one has ever seen an atom, so should we teach all the alternate quantum theories, too? Look, there could be debates in schools about if the sky is blue or not. Gravity is also a theory, so should we go back to the churches teachings before Newton, too? I don't want to fight with anyone here, but in general, there's an understanding(and supreme court ruling) that separates the churches teachings with the public's teachings.


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Rutledge222
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:17 pm 
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daz28 wrote:
Rutledge222 wrote:
Evolution is still a theory... schools teach it like its fact... its not....
Creationism is a theory.... schools should teach it as such ... regardless of your belief in the Bible or God or whatever.

Theories are theories my friends.... let the students decide for themselves what they want to believe...

Here's the problem, WHO'S religions are we going to teach? Shall we waste a few years of high school teaching students the precepts of all the worlds religions, so the students can decide which one they like? I don't think so. Find your spirituality on your own, not in a public school you are REQUIRED to attend. Our education system is already garbage, and teaching various religions would send it right down the toilet.

Also, NEVER should things that are basically proven wrong be taught. That poll showed that even though carbon dating(pretty much an indisputable scientific fact) proves humans have been around for longer than 10k years, someone is still teaching them it, and they stand firm in their belief. I understand that MANY things are theory, but we have to try to have a consensus on some scientific facts. No one has ever seen an atom, so should we teach all the alternate quantum theories, too? Look, there could be debates in schools about if the sky is blue or not. Gravity is also a theory, so should we go back to the churches teachings before Newton, too? I don't want to fight with anyone here, but in general, there's an understanding(and supreme court ruling) that separates the churches teachings with the public's teachings.



Im not going to get into an argument with you about this, but as much as you like to say carbon dating is indisputable, are you aware that scientists throw away samples that dont fit their preconceived notion of Millions of Years ago (Dinosaurs). Im not saying that its wrong all the time, but it definitely has a margin of error. I read a report not to long ago about a bone from a dinosaur who supposedly lived millions of years ago getting sent to a lab to get tested for Carbon dating and the results came back for just under 7000 years ago.... but they students doing the report did not tell the lab it was a dinosaur bone they were testing. Im mean thats all relative and besides the point I was originally trying to make, if you like you can PM me and we can discuss it more without getting into a flame war with everyone else on this board as it seems to be the trend lately....


But I dont think it is a matter to do with religion as it is, identifying what are the theories of how the world came to be, present them to students and have them decide on their own what they chose to believe. Like I said theories are theories, and it is kind of disgusting that public schools teach one theory as fact when it is not. Im not saying to force creationism down peoples throats as fact either. But people should be allowed to make their own judgments. And you wanna talk about things basically proven wrong?Creationism is all but "basically proven wrong" as you put it. Evolution is no saint either... it has it's fair share of flaws. Which is why both things are just theories.

Like I said, if you want to PM me that would be great, Id rather not start a flame war with people on a grand scale cause quite honestly, im a busy college student with papers, homework, and projects. Sound good?

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BagBoy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Rutledge I typed this out before I saw any of your responses, so nothing personal here.

It seems to me that if we (collective we) are approaching this issue properly, there is absolutely no problem with creationism and science coexisting in a perfectly logical way. I’m an agnostic/atheist, but I don’t have a problem in the world making space in this conversation for God, or a higher power, or whatever you want to call it. After all I can’t prove that God doesn’t exist. By the same token, nobody can discount scientifically proven facts just because they don’t jive with their beliefs. If somebody thinks God created the earth 6000 years ago, they are wrong. It’s just that simple. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that’s a fact. Anybody who denies that amidst all the proof is an embarrassment to their Creator!

Here’s the thing. Science does the HOW question. Religion does the WHY and the WHO questions. They’re not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, for me at least, it doesn’t make sense to separate the two (yin/yang). No matter how far science advances, it will never be able to disprove the existence of a god (or gods!), and it will never answer the ultimate WHY questions.

So it’s not a question of IF God belongs in the conversation, but rather WHERE God belongs. The Bible didn’t say anything about evolution, for example. So what. Evolution is a fact. It was presented as a theory in 1860. It has long ago, and repeatedly, been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true - end of story. It is not a theory anymore. It is fact. If Bible passages are being used to reject this, then they are just plain being misinterpreted. After all God didn’t write the Bible. The only thing we know about the people who wrote the Bible is that they didn’t know a lot of what we know now. However, this in no way excludes God from the evolution question.

I don’t understand why strict creationists actually prefer the belief that God created man 6000 years ago, and he hasn’t evolved since, and never will. That God is lame! On the other hand, if you’ve got a God who created us in a way that allowed us to evolve and get smarter and stronger and more adaptable to change and stressors over time, well that sounds like a pretty badass God to me!

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Rutledge222 wrote:
without getting into a flame war with everyone else on this board as it seems to be the trend lately....

You ain't kidding. There seems to be a lot of people of who want to be intolerant of others opinions lately, so this post really won't be directed to you personally.

This isn't really about religion though, it's about what we're teaching kids. Faith belongs in the church, and facts(at least what's considered facts by a large majority of the scientific community) belong in the public schools. Those things that clash with religion can be overidden by the church, anyways. If anything in the bible can be substantiated by science, then teach away, but just teaching something faith based shouldn't be happening. For example, science might say a great flood was caused by glacial melting, and religion may say God got angry. I don't think you should teach that one guy built a ship 1,000 times the size of the Titanic, went around the whole planet capturing 2 of each animal(and all the food to sustain them for 40 days plus the time since capture), and then asking the students to decide. Science and faith can mix, but not in the same place at the same time. Religion is highly based on interpretation, where science is based on scientific method. They are just too completely different to co-exist.

This is all outside the fact that someone has to decide WHICH religions we're going to teach, and which parts of it(half the gospels were discarded, shall we bring them back and re-decide if they should be taught, too). As I said, the Quran has its own belief of creation as well.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Evolution is a fact. It's not a theory.

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:18 pm 
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BlueandYellow wrote:
Evolution is a fact. It's not a theory.

Not in the eyes of the Republican legislature in Tennessee's mind? In fact, they believe your facts are ruining the critical thinking of their students. LOL For what it's worth, let's call it an 'accepted fact'.

I wonder what Peyton Manning believes, because he's next in line after God there?


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Rutledge222 wrote:
Evolution is still a theory... schools teach it like its fact... its not....
Creationism is a theory.... schools should teach it as such ... regardless of your belief in the Bible or God or whatever.

Theories are theories my friends.... let the students decide for themselves what they want to believe...


You are confused about what a theory is in the context of evolutionary theory. Gravity is, technically speaking, also a "theory" (though we obviously view it differently; however, the same can be said about many different scientific "theories" that we generally hold as fact), but I don't see anyone suggesting we teach alternatives to gravity, either. When we talk about a theory in terms of evolution, we're not simply talking about conjecture. It's not an "educated guess" nor a hypothesis. It's an analysis of a set of facts in relation to one another. The theory of evolution is made up of facts.

Furthermore, the facts which make up evolutionary theory are more or less agreed upon by a majority of people in the scientific community. Now, unless you want to go all conspiracy theory on us and suggest that all the scientists in the world are trying to convince the world that evolution is real when it's not... then, yes I think it's perfectly suitable that schools teach evolution as if it's fact, because... well, it pretty much is. Maybe there are gaps, but the gaps do not make the theory of evolution completely false. If you have a puzzle of a cat, it's going to be a puzzle of a cat, even if it's missing a few pieces. It would be silly to suggest that it was a puzzle of a duck, simply because the puzzle wasn't complete.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:40 pm 
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I used to believe in God (not necessarily Creationism, that's always seemed silly to me) and really for reasons that would take too long to explain (other than starting to believe Christianity is a crock, my beliefs, not bashing anyone else) I gave up faith. I'm more of an Agnostic, now. Evolution has enough evidence already to be considered fact, but it would rip a chunk of the Bible out and make it false, so that cannot happen for Creationists.

Creationism is absolutely 100% false, it's been proven false, it's false, false, false. It shouldn't be taught in schools purely for the sake of making people "Skeptical". Being "skeptical" about things isn't always great, especially when you're being skeptical about FACT.

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Rutledge222
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:46 pm 
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I feel as if I should clarify. I do believe in micro evolution because it is possible and happens all the time. Another thing I will state is that I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of the world being as old as you say it is because I believe that God set things in motion but when is up for debate. I also think that it is possible the big bang happened but God set it in motion. I think it was daz that mentioned it, but I think it's true that science and religion coexist with each other and do compliment each other but sometimes people get so caught up in one or the other that they refuse to see the other aspect of it as well.

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daz28
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Ok, back to the Establishment clause...

I'm afraid people are going to get offended here. I have no issue with anyone believing anything they want to. A lot of people may think a lot of parts of religion are silly, but it's better to keep it to one's self. After all, people of religion probably feel a lot of things about people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists are silly, too. One thing we can ALL agree on is that everyone has the RIGHT to believe whatever they want.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:53 pm 
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daz28 wrote:
Ok, back to the Establishment clause...

I'm afraid people are going to get offended here. I have no issue with anyone believing anything they want to. A lot of people may think a lot of parts of religion are silly, but it's better to keep it to one's self. After all, people of religion probably feel a lot of things about people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists are silly, too. One thing we can ALL agree on is that everyone has the RIGHT to believe whatever they want.

Yes, anyone can believe anything. Nobody is disputing that and if someone gets offended then we'll cool it down. Hopefully we can keep this as an argument and not a holy war.

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Last edited by BlueandYellow on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:53 pm 
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I have a hard time understanding why you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution. I don't particularly feel like debating, but this might be an interesting thing for you to look at in regards to micro/macro evolution: http://forums.khinsider.com/tin-foil-ha ... color.html

I am not religious. I don't really care about religion much, to be honest, though I do agree that religion and science can coexist. However, I do find it to be a major issue that people think it's okay to bring religion into a science classroom. As I said, religion and science can certainly coexist, but a science classroom is for science. If they want to bring in religion, they can do it in church, English (since the Bible is literature, after all), or in religion classes. Creationism is not a scientific theory, and thus does not really have a place in a science classroom.


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