The Parise thread was going all over the place, so let's do this right.

I initially was ok with him staying as a 3rd line center, but I'd prefer the 3rd line go in a different direction. It wasn't successful at helping us generate much offense this year, so it may as well go in the direction it was when we starting playing well this year. That was with Goose-Kaleta-Gerbe. You might laugh at that, but Lindy leaned on that line A LOT, and while they didn't light it up scoring, they were a nightmare to play against(ask PIT 6-2). I'd prefer that over Roy turning it over left and right, Leino just not able to do much of anything, and Gerbe failing to finish. Too many times this year we saw gritty guys like Tropp and Ellis making the higher paid guys look silly, so I'm all for gaining cap space by moving/burying them or whatever, and trying to have an effective checking 3rd line. If moving Roy, and burying Leino can bring in Parise(Weber/Suter), then that's ideal, and changes things a bit.

Vanek is also on a short leash with me. I love that he likes playing here, and he accepts personal responsibility, but if he can't hack being Lindy's whipping boy, then he may have to go as well. $7+ million guys are often streaky, but he fell off the face of the earth at a critical time. I never thought that would happen.

Roy fact:
-since may 1st(about the last 6 weeks), he got points in 6 of 19 games averaging about 20 minutes a game, which included only 3 goals on 42 shots.

May as well throw Leino in the discussion, too. I'd love to find a way to get rid of him. Maybe Kotes needs a line mate.
Leino fact:
- 8 goals in 71 games. Pathetic. Nuff said

"Wahhh, now I'll go start my own thread about Roy after the Parise thread somehow got off track".

Uhh, you probably don't see the irony in this.

Is there a problem? You want to keep Roy, I want him gone. Grow the fuck up, and discuss it like an adult. You have your reasons, I have mine. If you think I'm just being a dick, you're wrong.

...and no irony hasn't posted in this thread yet.

haha, you bring up Ellis and Crosby, but I'm the straw man????/ You better look up the definition, bro, because I'm pretty sure saying Roy and Leino blow isn't a straw man argument.

I'm glad you don't want Leino, and he doesn't have enough "better parts of his game" to justify anything. His game stinks. I didn't see you posting about how we had to use Kotalik in the line-up, so why are you insisting Leino has to have a role?

Ya, Roy did have a few good seasons years ago, but I'm arguing he's not the same Roy as pre-injury. Does the fact Chechoo had good seasons a while back mean he's still a top 30 winger, because his stats average out that way? I'm not going to average his stats, because I'm saying, RIGHT NOW ROY IS DOGSHIT(not then).

We did try the 3 line set-up this year, and we got lucky one of them produced(purely by luck, I may add). You're basically saying you want the same guys doing the same thing next year, but you expect a different result.

Daz, he's not saying anything to justify Leino being on the team. He's saying we can't get rid of him so we better just accept him and hope he uses his strong points to help us out.

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"Counting all the assholes in the room, I'm definitely not alone!" ~ Michael Poulsen, Volbeat, Still Standing.

Bury him then. I'd rather have Matty Ellis, or Tropper on the ice. The guy had one season with Briere, and that's it. I don't deal in absolutes. Sure, Roy and Leino may have good years next year, but I think with Roy the chances are maybe 50/50, and with Leino they're VERY slim. I'd prefer we get grittier than risk keeping Roy. Luke Adam is a wild card in this equation, too. If he plays like he did early this season, then I want Roy gone anyways. I'm sure the SM-liiga would love to have Ville back.

A caller on WGR(I know this may be pure horseshit) said he was in the Philly box, and he heard them saying Leino just doesn't get the NA game, and they didn't want him back. After seeing him play, I kind of believe it.

wut

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"Counting all the assholes in the room, I'm definitely not alone!" ~ Michael Poulsen, Volbeat, Still Standing.

I tried discussing like an adult in the other thread, which included my own option of trading Roy, so obviously I'm not very tied to keeping him. The stats I mentioned backed up that Roy isn't all that bad, and you went on about Leino as if I think he's great.

The irony is that you pressed on off-topic issue like Roy, then went even further to try and aggravate me over Leino, and then come here starting a topic about Roy, complaining that the "Parise" thread went off topic. So no, you don't see the irony.

"Wut"...indeed.

I'm still sold on Vanek. I think the combo of lindy and injuries killed him this year

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I don't know much, but if you want to initiate an adult discussion, you don't do so by telling someone to 'grow the fuck up'.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

The discussion had already been initiated with, "Wahhh", I was trying to return it to an adult one.


Let's keep the facts straight here. My only response to Parise was, "YUUUUPPP". Jamerz said Roy was too expensive as a 3rd line C, and that Stoll is good off/def. You disputed that claim, and said Roy has 70 pt. potential. Pat said you'd be stupid to want Roy gone w/o a clear upgrade. So I then went to NHL.com, and really had a difficult time finding a worse center than Roy last year, and concluded just about anyone is an upgrade. You returned with a straw man argument that if Roy sucks, then so does Crosby, and that his injury was the problem(when ya play 80 games, you don't get a pardon). You went on further to assert he's a 1b, 2a center, who you expect to put up 65 pts. Pat backs you again, and B&Y disagrees stating Roy blows, and is a turnover machine.

I guess this is where I "pressed the off-topic" issue by wondering how he's a 1b, 2a when his stats(and play-not backchecking, turnovers) were shit last year, and hows he going to get 65 pts when the forwards left after FES and VHP are Gerbe and Leino.

Then you went all out protecting your boy Derek saying him, Leino and Pommers(Pommers the only one actually scoring any points) would be good over 82 games(which leaves Vanek out to dry/no thanks), and everything got derailed(including you getting personal), so don't paint this picture I was out for trouble, when I wasn't.

Facts are we want FES for sure. We want Vanek and Pommers together, and we don't want Roy between them, we want Hodgson. That leaves Roy out in the cold, with Ville and Nathan(who EARNED the right to be out of the mix by sucking). Them's just the facts, and there's no way Roy can play like you're thinking he can on that line. Rather than have that line be easy to play against(turnovers galore and no back-checking), and not scoring, I propose we put some grit in there instead. That's my assertion, so let's drop the drama, and stick with that.

Unless we get an offer we can't refuse, yes, I want Roy back next year.

He had one bad year after an extended recovery where he couldn't skate. That for me is not enough to freak out about. We can't just get rid of people every time we think they are under-performing. For example, there were many people here who said we should trade Miller this season, because he was struggling. Yes, he was struggling, but only for about 20-25 games. But he was still the Olympics MVP, has his name on the Vezina, and is a proven winner; and he was struggling to overcome concussion symptoms. By the end of the year, he was back to his old self (or better). Over-reacting and not approaching big decisions objectively is no way to run a hockey club. Nobody leaves their wife for good because she burned dinner the last 3 nights.

Roy's a good PK and PP guy. He's valuable in the faceoff circle. He's cheap, too. At only $4M he was more efficient than Vanek from a $ per point consideration. Even in this off year Roy was $91K per point and Vanek $117K per point. Roy was only $58K per point his last full season, which he led the Sabres in scorong btw. Also, center is our biggest need. Even if you don't like Roy, we still need him.

As for Vanek, he's not going anywhere with that contract. We're stuck with him.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

All the talk I hear about guys we can't move, and guys we shouldn't move doesn't have me very optimistic about the future. If Vanek and Leino are here no matter how they play, and we have to hope that Roy's problems were all injury and not laziness or selfishness, then I don't know what to think. It would seem a culture change is IMPOSSIBLE with those stipulations, and we better brace ourselves for more of what we got this year for next year. Philly made a culture change, so why can't we? The whole league thought they may have over-reacted, and weren't objective, but they were trying to break the status quo is all. I dunno, maybe I'm just losing patience, but it also seems we've been patient long enough, especially seeing Pegula claimed we were launching into a new era. There's a lot of things I like moving forward, but I think we're stuck in the past a bit too much as well. Even stubborn Lindy now believes the core might be rotten, and I hope he doesn't feel he's stuck with the same players no matter what. I mean we have to move SOMEONE to make a change, and who better to move than a guy who may have injuries or is coming off a bad year? Would you rather move a guy who played well last year, and has been healthy lately? It seems this forum has been all cake and eat it too lately. You have to make the hard decisions, and live with them. Darcy did it with signings and trades. Lindy is finally admitting it, so it's our turn to realize some of these guys have to go, whether we like them or not.

Daz, my comment about Crosby was not a strawman argument. I wasn't at all trying to misrepresent what you said. In fact I was going the other direction, saying that if you took the "stats are stats" comment too literally, you then could say that Crosby had a bad year based on 37 pts. OF COURSE Crosby didn't have a bad year though. I said that IF you did take that logic to the extreme it wouldn't look quite right. I didn't exaggerate what you said, I said that IF someone took that logic to the extreme it would break down. That's a big difference. A strawman argument would've been to say, "Oh so you think Crosy had a bad season then based on 37 pts...wow are you wrong!". That's a lot closer to what you did with me about Leino. And there's no need for comments like, "your boy Derek". If you really aren't out for trouble you wouldn't have posted that kind of crap or much of what you did on the other thread.

More on topic though. You might want Vanek-Hodgson-Pominville, and that may be a better line and may actually happen. But it was Leino-Roy-Pominville that played the last six weeks, and actually played well while the team also played well. Just because I don't really like two of those players I won't ignore that they played well for a stretch. I'm only being safe in assuming that if Roy were still around that that line would still be together. You can make an equally plausible argument that just adding a good winger to Vanek-Hodgson rounds out the top nine, whether it's Roy or a top drafted center in the mix.

I've said it in various posts...Roy can be replaced and he won't be around after next season anyway, but not unless we find someone besides who is on the current roster to take his place. Roy MAY not be good enough next season, but I KNOW that McCormick or Ellis won't be good enough.

I'd argue that the LRP line your talking about got most of its juice from having Pommers on it(because Roy and Leino simply didn't put up points, even during that stretch). I also don't want Vanek left as the odd man out. I'm not opposed to your idea, as long as Vanek and Coho get a line-mate that doesn't throw them to the wolves, but if Ville or Derek continue to struggle, they ABSOLUTELY have to be gone by the deadline. I'm pretty sure the coach is calling for a culture change(and we know he ain't goin nowhere), so logically, I'd see Roy, Leino or even Vanek as the most likely scapegoats. I really don't want Vanek and Pommers split up either. My last point will be that Roy and Leino gone frees up $8.5M. Enough to sign ANY of the top free agents. I'd do that in a red hot second for Parise, Weber or Suter. If we were to get say Suter, it also allows us to free up the $2.75 Suckers is gonna get, so basically, those 3 free up over $11M.

Roy is very tradeable, but no GM will take Leino at 4.45 mil. We'd have to ADD to Leino just to get another GM to take on his cap hit. I think that would actually be an illegal trade too.

If Regier went the way of trading Roy, signing Parise, and then signing Gaustad (for cheap if he really wants back...2.5 mil) or Moen for 3rd line C we'd be better off that way too. He'd still probably have to acquire those players first before dealing Roy. I doubt there will be enough room for a major addition to both forward and defense though. Not unless Regier cleans house, and I just won't ever believe that he would or could do that.

I know, Leino can go work at one of Terry's gas wells. Seriously, I think Darcy needs to just bury him in the FEL(he'll be happy with the loot, and the league will love having him), because he'll be an albatross forever if he doesn't. Terry's got the money. As you said, Roy is Very tradeable this year, because his contract is up. Get some value for him, and bring in ZFP. Get Goose(as you said) back, and ditch Cody Mac for Konopka. Then we have 2 big guys who win draws. That's the problem with a 4th line. On the road, you can NEVER put them out in your own zone, unless they are good at draws, which totally fucks your line rotations. Plus both guys are physical. I like him, but Cody Mac is just too one dimensional.

Any player at anytime can be moved no matter how bad of a contract or how bad they are. This means Leino too. Package Leino with Roy and a 1st to a team that has salary like the Isles or Panthers then there you go you free up salary to go after the guy you want. Plus FLA loves guys like Leino, there whole team is comprised of Leino's.

I don't want to trade Vanek. If our star player can't hack being a whipping boy for our head coach it's simple the coach has to go.

Roy is a must trade if Darcy and team management don't see that then they shouldn't be in this business of hockey.

Another guy I want to get rid of is Sekera. He commits so many turnovers. I believe it was his giveaway that destroyed our chances at loffs in the Philly game.

In a couple of years we will clear up a considerable amount of salary though. With Vanek, Pominville, Miller and McCormick set to be UFA's. Think pretty close to $20 Million? Miller IMO will walk or will at least test the UFA market if we haven't made some success in the playoffs and coaching he IMO will leave. Pominville I see staying. Vanek I think will go with the highest bidder as he did back when he was a RFA.

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"If you want to know what I've been doing lately, I've been driving around from Tim Horton's to Tim Horton's, rolling up the rim. Haven't won anything yet. Thanks." - Lindy Ruff

I dunno about Gaustad. We played so much better without him in the lineup and I hate to see another overpaid player on this team.

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"If you want to know what I've been doing lately, I've been driving around from Tim Horton's to Tim Horton's, rolling up the rim. Haven't won anything yet. Thanks." - Lindy Ruff