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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Just because a player has a lot of points in junior doesn't mean it will transfer to the NHL. Just because a goalie has a lot of wins in junior doesn't mean it will transfer to the NHL. How is this hard?

Well, but that's pretty much how you judge young players, by their results. How is that hard? Do you just say "this guy will soon be 6 foot 6, 250 pounds"? No, you look at what they did in juniors.


Go to the WHL website and tell me, how many players who lead the WHL in scoring since they've been keeping stats on the site are still in the NHL or ever made the NHL.

Answer: barely any. Scoring in juniors isn't everything.

Between 04-05 and 09-10, there's Troy Brouwer, Zach Hamill, Eric Fehr, Brandon Kozun, Linden Vey. That's 5 players still on NHL rosters in 6 seasons who lead the WHL in scoring. Yeah, but that's barely any. (Won't count the most recent seasons because they still might be developing)


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Vanek_Fanatic_26
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

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Last edited by Vanek_Fanatic_26 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

You're right about Vey and Kozun, but the others...? Your question was how many have even made the NHL, not how much they scored there. Don't change your question once you get an answer that doesn't fit your theory. That's 3 top scorers in 6 seasons, which is 50%. That's not "barely any" by anyone's standards.

Yes, scoring isn't everything, but why did Mackinnon and Drouin and Jones get picked where they did? Because of what they did in juniors! You can't use that for them then ignore the results of other players. Juniors aren't everything, but they certainly mean a ton in drafting.


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Vanek_Fanatic_26
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

You're right about Vey and Kozun, but the others...? Your question was how many have even made the NHL, not how much they scored there. Don't change your question once you get an answer that doesn't fit your theory. That's 3 top scorers in 6 seasons, which is 50%. That's not "barely any" by anyone's standards.

Yes, scoring isn't everything, but why did Mackinnon and Drouin and Jones get picked where they did? Because of what they did in juniors! You can't use that for them then ignore the results of other players. Juniors aren't everything, but they certainly mean a ton in drafting.


If your benchmark is "they've played in the NHL" or "they're on an 'NHL' roster," then yeah, I guess you're right. But you're acting as if the players the Sabres picked have no chance at becoming good NHL players because they didn't lead their league in points, or didn't lead the league in wins. We don't even know yet, but leading the WHL in points doesn't mean a 2nd round player is going to be good, nor does it mean they're going to be an NHL player.

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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

You're right about Vey and Kozun, but the others...? Your question was how many have even made the NHL, not how much they scored there. Don't change your question once you get an answer that doesn't fit your theory. That's 3 top scorers in 6 seasons, which is 50%. That's not "barely any" by anyone's standards.

Yes, scoring isn't everything, but why did Mackinnon and Drouin and Jones get picked where they did? Because of what they did in juniors! You can't use that for them then ignore the results of other players. Juniors aren't everything, but they certainly mean a ton in drafting.


If your benchmark is "they've played in the NHL" or "they're on an 'NHL' roster," then yeah, I guess you're right. But you're acting as if the players the Sabres picked have no chance at becoming good NHL players because they didn't lead their league in points, or didn't lead the league in wins. We don't even know yet, but leading the WHL in points doesn't mean a 2nd round player is going to be good, nor does it mean they're going to be an NHL player.

I've watched Petan for two years. He got a lot of those points because he played with Rattie and Leipsic this year, but he manufactured a lot of them too. In the Mem Cup championship game he had a goal and 3 assists. I'm not basing that prediction purely on numbers. With Fucale, I've only seen him play at the Mem Cup, but I was impressed and those numbers didn't just happen because of Mackinnon and Drouin. He had to play well, like Fleury did in the 09' playoffs when he had a great team in front. This year Fleury had arguably an even better team in front of him and he didn't play well, so they lost. Wins and loses are not everything, but they are they most important thing.


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Think of it like this, would an employer prefer someone educated at Harvard (the CHL), or one educated at say, Arizona State (USDL)? Of course there could be absolutely brilliant people who went to Arizona State, but most employers would probably go with the Harvard education because it's more of a known factor.

The Sabres picks could turn out great, but probability sides with the players who are known to have performed well in the toughest leagues and on the biggest stages.


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BagBoy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:37 pm 
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It's true we won't know if the 2nd rounders were good picks for 3-5 years. However, if I was Darcy, I would have DAMN sure taken Fucale. In fact, I thought the trade to get to 35 was expressly for the purpose of getting Fucale.
He was the best goalie in the draft, and now he's in Montreal of all fucking places.

Oh and btw, there aren't any brilliant people who went to Arizona State!!!

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Vanek_Fanatic_26
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

You're right about Vey and Kozun, but the others...? Your question was how many have even made the NHL, not how much they scored there. Don't change your question once you get an answer that doesn't fit your theory. That's 3 top scorers in 6 seasons, which is 50%. That's not "barely any" by anyone's standards.

Yes, scoring isn't everything, but why did Mackinnon and Drouin and Jones get picked where they did? Because of what they did in juniors! You can't use that for them then ignore the results of other players. Juniors aren't everything, but they certainly mean a ton in drafting.


If your benchmark is "they've played in the NHL" or "they're on an 'NHL' roster," then yeah, I guess you're right. But you're acting as if the players the Sabres picked have no chance at becoming good NHL players because they didn't lead their league in points, or didn't lead the league in wins. We don't even know yet, but leading the WHL in points doesn't mean a 2nd round player is going to be good, nor does it mean they're going to be an NHL player.

I've watched Petan for two years. He got a lot of those points because he played with Rattie and Leipsic this year, but he manufactured a lot of them too. In the Mem Cup championship game he had a goal and 3 assists. I'm not basing that prediction purely on numbers. With Fucale, I've only seen him play at the Mem Cup, but I was impressed and those numbers didn't just happen because of Mackinnon and Drouin. He had to play well, like Fleury did in the 09' playoffs when he had a great team in front. This year Fleury had arguably an even better team in front of him and he didn't play well, so they lost. Wins and loses are not everything, but they are they most important thing.


The year the Pens won the Cup, they had an outstanding defense. Only two players remain from that defense (Kris Letang and Brooks Orpik) and the signings the Penguins have made since then have all busted (Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek).

Patrice Bergeron, arguably the best defensive center in the NHL, came out of the offensive QMJHL with just 73 points in 70 games (yes, I say just. This is the QMJHL.)

Johnathan Toews was a 3rd overall pick who came out of UND. He's been one of the best two-way centers since entering the league.

You can find good players from any point of the draft from any program, and they aren't stat leaders, league-leaders, but are still amazing NHL players. You're pissed off about 2nd-round picks, here. There's a reason Petan was a second round pick. I'm sure he'll be a good player, but he's pretty small, and seems to need the help of stellar linemates. The Sabres have plenty of small on their roster.

All 5 players the Sabres took in the 1st 2 rounds were players rated in the top 60 of their age group, including Justin Bailey, who they passed in the 2nd round twice before taking him. I don't think they took him for the Williamsville connection, but I'm sure they looked at him a little more because of that.

I guess really what I'm saying is I don't see a reason to be pissed the Sabres didn't take a guy in the 2nd round. More than 2/3 of them will never see the NHL, unless this draft is truly like the 2003 draft.

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Vanek_Fanatic_26
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Eric Fehr barely scores barely 20 points a year. Brouwer gets around 30-40. Hamill has 4 points, 20 games over 3 seasons and is essentially out of the NHL. Neither Kozun nor Vey have played in the NHL.

So yeah, that's barely any. Scoring the most in any junior league means absolutely nothing.

You're right about Vey and Kozun, but the others...? Your question was how many have even made the NHL, not how much they scored there. Don't change your question once you get an answer that doesn't fit your theory. That's 3 top scorers in 6 seasons, which is 50%. That's not "barely any" by anyone's standards.

Yes, scoring isn't everything, but why did Mackinnon and Drouin and Jones get picked where they did? Because of what they did in juniors! You can't use that for them then ignore the results of other players. Juniors aren't everything, but they certainly mean a ton in drafting.


If your benchmark is "they've played in the NHL" or "they're on an 'NHL' roster," then yeah, I guess you're right. But you're acting as if the players the Sabres picked have no chance at becoming good NHL players because they didn't lead their league in points, or didn't lead the league in wins. We don't even know yet, but leading the WHL in points doesn't mean a 2nd round player is going to be good, nor does it mean they're going to be an NHL player.

I've watched Petan for two years. He got a lot of those points because he played with Rattie and Leipsic this year, but he manufactured a lot of them too. In the Mem Cup championship game he had a goal and 3 assists. I'm not basing that prediction purely on numbers. With Fucale, I've only seen him play at the Mem Cup, but I was impressed and those numbers didn't just happen because of Mackinnon and Drouin. He had to play well, like Fleury did in the 09' playoffs when he had a great team in front. This year Fleury had arguably an even better team in front of him and he didn't play well, so they lost. Wins and loses are not everything, but they are they most important thing.


The year the Pens won the Cup, they had an outstanding defense. Only two players remain from that defense (Kris Letang and Brooks Orpik) and the signings the Penguins have made since then have all busted (Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek).

Patrice Bergeron, arguably the best defensive center in the NHL, came out of the offensive QMJHL with just 73 points in 70 games (yes, I say just. This is the QMJHL.)

Johnathan Toews was a 3rd overall pick who came out of UND. He's been one of the best two-way centers since entering the league.

You can find good players from any point of the draft from any program, and they aren't stat leaders, league-leaders, but are still amazing NHL players. You're pissed off about 2nd-round picks, here. There's a reason Petan was a second round pick. I'm sure he'll be a good player, but he's pretty small, and seems to need the help of stellar linemates. The Sabres have plenty of small on their roster.

All 5 players the Sabres took in the 1st 2 rounds were players rated in the top 60 of their age group, including Justin Bailey, who they passed in the 2nd round twice before taking him. I don't think they took him for the Williamsville connection, but I'm sure they looked at him a little more because of that.

I guess really what I'm saying is I don't see a reason to be pissed the Sabres didn't take a guy in the 2nd round. More than 2/3 of them will never see the NHL, unless this draft is truly like the 2003 draft.

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TheBlackDahliaMurder
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:40 pm 
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I think the point being made is that looking at stats is the wrong way of going about it because they don't directly translate to the next level. Talent level and competitiveness do - otherwise all GMs would have to do is look at stat sheets rather than watch the players. Point production can be caused by a lot of factors - the surrounding talent on your team, the league you play in, etc.

I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about these players, but if Fucale and Petan are as good as you say they are, why did they fall a ways into the 2nd round?

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Vanek_Fanatic_26
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Think of it like this, would an employer prefer someone educated at Harvard (the CHL), or one educated at say, Arizona State (USDL)? Of course there could be absolutely brilliant people who went to Arizona State, but most employers would probably go with the Harvard education because it's more of a known factor.

The Sabres picks could turn out great, but probability sides with the players who are known to have performed well in the toughest leagues and on the biggest stages.


The WHL, QMJHL, and OHL are no longer the toughest leagues or the biggest stages. The US U-18 team at the WJC this year proved that there are plenty of American players who can match Canadians in terms of talent and hockey ability. A lot more players are coming out of the NCAA programs and the USNTDP now.

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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:46 pm 
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TheBlackDahliaMurder wrote:

I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about these players, but if Fucale and Petan are as good as you say they are, why did they fall a ways into the 2nd round?

Fucale I think because he's a goalie and teams shy away from them early. Petan, probably because he's not big.

But yes, talent can come from anywhere. I just think that this draft was as deep as any we've seen in the past decade, and that teams really did "miss out" on almost-surefire prospects in the 2nd round.


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:59 pm 
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BagBoy wrote:
Oh and btw, there aren't any brilliant people who went to Arizona State!!!

Thanks for that one bagboy. :D I was pretty happy with my analogy and pretty sure no one here went to Arizona State.


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Think of it like this, would an employer prefer someone educated at Harvard (the CHL), or one educated at say, Arizona State (USDL)? Of course there could be absolutely brilliant people who went to Arizona State, but most employers would probably go with the Harvard education because it's more of a known factor.

The Sabres picks could turn out great, but probability sides with the players who are known to have performed well in the toughest leagues and on the biggest stages.


The WHL, QMJHL, and OHL are no longer the toughest leagues or the biggest stages. The US U-18 team at the WJC this year proved that there are plenty of American players who can match Canadians in terms of talent and hockey ability. A lot more players are coming out of the NCAA programs and the USNTDP now.

No argument that the CHL is not the only breeding ground for NHL talent. US and European leagues are much more competitive than ever. Any place can be a source of talent. I meant what I said about the education analogy (even though I did rip on AS). People can get a great education from most schools. It's more about what the student puts into the experience, so community colleges can produce highly skilled, motivated, and competent graduates. Likewise an ivy league grad could turn out to be a total fuckup (George W. anyone?). But there is still a hierarchy in education. And there is in hockey education too. The CHL still produces far more NHL players than the other leagues. They are still the Ivy League of hockey. So I don't put accomplishments in other leagues on equal footing in my evaluation of young hockey players.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:43 pm 
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We drafted Marek Zagrapan who had impressive stats in his junior hockey years. Look how that turned out.

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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:57 pm 
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BlueandYellow wrote:
We drafted Marek Zagrapan who had impressive stats in his junior hockey years. Look how that turned out.

Read my last post. Just like an ivy league education doesn't assure success, neither doe a great junior career in the CHL. But that doesn't negate the overall pattern just because there are exceptions. You guys wanted to know why I think they missed out, so I'm giving you the reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to be right, but I have a real solid reason for feeling the way I do. Whereas it seems to me like you guys are just saying "Who knows? These Sabres picks COULD be just as good". Again, someone who went to community college could be a better employee for a law firm than someone who went to an ivy league. That COULD happen, but the law firms are still gonna be partial to the ivy leaguer. Why are you guys partial to these picks other than that the Sabres think they are good? What "expert opinion", as Vanekfanatic put it, are you basing your argument on?


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:19 pm 
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I'm basing it upon all of the expert's rankings that didn't put the kid in top positions...?

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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:25 pm 
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BlueandYellow wrote:
I'm basing it upon all of the expert's rankings that didn't put the kid in top positions...?

Don't know what you're talking about. "Experts" at NHL central scouting, TSN, etc. all ranked Fucale and Petan higher than any of the Sabres 2nd round picks. I'm arguing about these players vis-a-vis Buffalo's 2nd round picks, not vs. the top 10 picks or something.


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Idk why they chose those players in the 2nd round, but by the sounds of it, their own personal scouts probably favored them. Which, in the later rounds, they're probably a bit more accurate.


Idk. I'm content with the draft.

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Skyline_BNR34
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Vanek_Fanatic_26 wrote:
Skyline_BNR34 wrote:
TheBlackDahliaMurder wrote:
I'm actually pretty thrilled we double dipped at defense. I've been saying for a while that this team needs a legit franchise defenseman to build around. Our prospect pool is loaded with guys whose ceiling is a #3 or #4 defenseman, and that's good and all, but we need "that" guy. I've given up hope Myers is going to be it.

We've let teams do whatever they want in front of the net for a while and these 2 guys seem like exactly what we need (admittedly I only read scouting reports and have never actually watched either play).

I'm glad you aren't the GM.

Hey everybody, We're giving up on a 6'8" 230 pound Defensemen that is only 23, has only 4 years of NHL experience, and plays one of the hardest positions to learn in all of hockey!!!!

You don't learn to play defense in one or two years normally.


No, but it does take a decent hockey IQ to play the position, and I don't think Myers really has that. He has height. That's really all he has going for him. He still struggles to gain weight. I don't want to say I've given up on him, but this franchise's penchant for holding onto their own talent until it's too late has been so frustrating.

Myers makes more good plays then he does bad plays. If you're going to argue his point totals or the beginning of his year this year, then please go back and watch later games where he was by far one of the better D-men on the team. Struggles to gain weight? He gained almost 30 pounds after his first year in the league, so how is that struggling to gain weight?

And to everyone who wanted us to draft Fucale. Why? We have Hackett, whom is already closer to the being NHL ready then Fucale would be at this point. Ullmark is playing against grown ass men in the SEL and posted incredible numbers this year and will continue to play for them for two more years. And what about Makorov, the undrafted goalie played in the WHL and had a 37-17-5 record posting a 2.62 GAA and a .919 sv% and won 18 straight games too. Then we also have Miller and Enroth who are the one-two punch right now. There was no reason in drafting a goalie when we have 7 total goalies in the system. Three who have real huge potential.

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