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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:21 pm 
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I knew I was attracted to men at 6 or 7. hell I knew I was into bondage at that age too. My partner knew she was trans even earlier. I haven't met a single gay or trans person that didn't know what they were before puberty. It's a little like learning colors, you know the differentiation and know what you like, but you don't know that purple is purple.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:25 pm 
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I'd like to link to this study that I found in a quick search.

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Later studies have provided further evidence in support of this conclusion. Rates of regret are consistently low: one study calculated a regret rate of 3.8%, and found that regrets were commonly associated with poor surgical results rather than with any desire to de-transition. Another study found that 98% of patients expressed no regrets post-operatively. In addition, 91.6% were satisfied with their overall appearance; the other 8.4% were neutral. In a group that had previously suffered from extreme gender dysphoria, it might be considered quite remarkable that, following surgery, not one patient’s physical appearance had given cause for personal dissatisfaction


Now obviously this is only one study, and is in no way conclusive or generalizable to the entire population. That said, this study at least suggests that it's very unlikely that someone who went through with a procedure felt regret afterwards. Now this is also in adults, and I don't know what, if any, procedures these people went through in their youth. However, it's likely that at least some of them went through the procedures we're talking about in this thread. Most patients are incredibly satisfied with the results of gender reassignment. Those that aren't are unhappy with the surgery, not with the sex they became.

It's one study, yes, but one that at least starts towards showing that the likelihood of regret later in life is pretty low, especially given the hoops one has to jump through to get things done when it comes to gender reassignment.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:28 pm 
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I don't discount that study one bit, so...why not allow kids to mature and make a MOST-informed decision, as opposed to a PROBABLY-informed decision?


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
NYI-

It might be a terrible question, but it was an honest one. You're right though...it "depends". When a child delays their natural physical development, that is a non-reversable cog in the machine. Sure, hormone therapy can be stopped and kids can "go back", but once you alter development...it's altered. Then to eventually decide to a sex change means that you never gave your biological sex and gender a real chance, just like the other side of the argument says you're not giving the gender change a real chance after puberty.

Saying that someone's straight/gay status can depend on puberty allows that maybe deciding on a sex change prior to puberty might not bew the best course.


That's like suggesting that it's inappropriate for a gay person to be gay without trying to be straight first. Hey, they should give being straight a real chance, so you should just try it. I don't think that makes any sense. This is how these people naturally feel. It's (usually) not some phase that people go through, and anyone that succeeds in going through with this process almost assuredly has a gender identity disorder. To say that they shouldn't go through a procedure so that they can feel the way they naturally feel just so they can give their "real" sex a chance doesn't seem fair to the child at all. So, they should be forced to live in a body they hate, just so they can give their "real" sex real chance?

And to that, 1980... sometimes, they do. In some cases, yes they use hormone blockers and then choose to go through with hormone replacement. In other cases, a child will choose to wait til adulthood and have surgery instead. It all depends. I don't really understand why someone should HAVE to choose the latter, though. It's their life and their choice, right? Shouldn't it be up to the family and the child, not up to the rest of us?


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:38 pm 
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CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
I knew I was attracted to men at 6 or 7. hell I knew I was into bondage at that age too. My partner knew she was trans even earlier. I haven't met a single gay or trans person that didn't know what they were before puberty. It's a little like learning colors, you know the differentiation and know what you like, but you don't know that purple is purple.


No offense but if you knew you were "into" bondage at the age of 6 then you had more problems in your life than wrestling with sexual identity. My seven year old has but the most vague idea of what sex even is let alone types of kink.

Anyhow, there is a huge difference between being gay and wanting to be the opposite sex. Why not make them wait to make that decision until they are older and have more experience with which to make it with?

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Petey -

No, I don't suggest a person try to be straight first, because there is no physical consequence one way or the other. When considering the semi-permanent prospect of sex change, perhaps it's wise to allow your body to develop, physically and mentally, to determine if it's really the right thing. That doesn't mean some twisted trial run of having sex with one gender or the other. That means simply allowing your body to fully mature as is, before going to a path towards changing it. Why does that sound so wrong?


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
I don't discount that study one bit, so...why not allow kids to mature and make a MOST-informed decision, as opposed to a PROBABLY-informed decision?



Damn dude, pay attention, the whole point of this thread is that for this treatment to work, it has to supplant 'normal' puberty. That's why kids cant 'mature' before making this decision.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:43 pm 
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I'm paying attention. Just because this type of treatment requires pre-puberty therapy doesn't mean that a person can't have a sex change down the road anyway. It might take longer hormone therapy but is that really too high a price to pay when it comes to being certain about the decision?


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Because you're forcing someone to mature in a body that isn't theirs. It's telling Jane, who really wants to be John, that she has no choice in changing who she is. It's making HIM go through the torture of developing breasts, and having his voice get higher. Making him have to struggle day after day with the fact that he cannot and will not be happy in his own skin for YEARS until he can elect to have surgery. I have no statistics on this, though I'm sure I could easily find some, but I'd bet that there are plenty of transgendered people who commit suicide during or after puberty, because they are so incredibly unhappy with themselves. So yes, I understand there are risks involved by having a child go through this procedure and potentially screwing up their lives. But at the same time, you have the potential to cause psychological destruction in a child, which could have been easily solved by hormone replacement.

EDIT: I'm still looking for an actual study to show this, but a few places I've been seem to show that the suicide rate in transgender youth (some as young as 7 years of age) is about 50%. Still looking for something a bit more conclusive.


Last edited by peteythedancingsabre on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
I'm paying attention. Just because this type of treatment requires pre-puberty therapy doesn't mean that a person can't have a sex change down the road anyway. It might take longer hormone therapy but is that really too high a price to pay when it comes to being certain about the decision?



It's the difference between starting your trip on the 'right' path VS having to backtrack hundreds of miles to get back to the starting point. Except in this case once you've gone down one path, you've physically developed differently than you would have going down the other path, and the starting point is not attainable.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:56 pm 
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But when you start the trip before puberty, there's a good chance that your map isn't accurate.

There might not be any good answer, but allowing a child/teen to make the final decision about something so difficult doesn't seem the best option.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:58 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
EDIT: I'm still looking for an actual study to show this, but a few places I've been seem to show that the suicide rate in transgender youth (some as young as 7 years of age) is about 50%. Still looking for something a bit more conclusive.


I'm willing to bet that the suicide rate is as much due to social pressure as actual physical "torture", as you call it.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:02 pm 
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The point I was going for is simple.

Some people know at a young age that they're homosexual / transgender. Some people go through a phase at a young age where there is confusion about their sexuality/gender, but ultimately that's all it is. Confusion.

The article seems to take the angle of 'Hey, let's take every confused kid out there and pump them full of drugs to put off puberty until they figure it out', even though THOSE DRUGS AREN'T APPROVED FOR THAT PURPOSE. There are medical repercussions for late puberty, and artificially inducing it for the sake of a maybe is questionable in my book.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:03 pm 
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If a child/teen feels like they're the wrong gender and wishes to correct that, I don't see how it's fair for anyone to dictate whether or not they can do it. It's their own personal choice. Twelve and thirteen year olds are fully capable and have fully succeeded in screwing up their lives irreversibly through many means--pregnancy, crime, self-harm, suicide, you name it. Legal or not, they've chosen to do whatever it is they've done. Given that gender reassignment is a much more CAREFULLY regulated system, I think it's fair for these kids, in tandem with parents, psychologists and doctors, to decide that they want to get hormone replacement.

On the suicide topic, possibly. I'd be more willing to bet it was unhappiness with their physical body mixed with harassment and bullying. Many transgender teens often get harassed for being the way they are, which can lead to suicide. Either way, I believe that if these same teens were given the chance to change who they were, you'd see a reduction in the suicide rate. That being said, social ideals need to change too for these kids to have a normal life, unless they hide from everyone that they used to be a boy. Otherwise, they can still face harassment for not being "normal".


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Squanto, just because the article takes that angle doesn't mean doctors to. Does the article take that angle? Maybe. I don't really see it. However, doctors, psychologists and families--the ones who actually matter, DO NOT take that angle. They don't pump every "confused kid" full of drugs til they figure it out. It's highly regulated. A doctor can't just do whatever the fuck they want to the child, and the child can't just say HEY GIVE ME HORMONES. It's a process. Those that are confused, in all likelihood, are not put through the process, as I'd be willing to bet that psychologists would catch that confusion. Those that aren't confused will be put through, because they clearly know what they want and how they feel. So... what's the issue?


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Squanto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Let me be crystal clear on this.

I'M NOT AGAINST ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONSIDER GENDER REASSIGNMENT AND/OR HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY.

My issue is that of informed consent. Into the teenage years, when sexuality becomes more important with the onset of puberty, I don't have any issue with that individual going down that path.

However, at younger ages, I question the logic of allowing such a choice. The article cites an 8 year old who decided they were transgender at 18 months. At that stage of development, BABIES KNOW 20 OR SO WORDS. Nobody can convince me that at 18 months a baby who doesn't even know the difference between a man and a woman can decide they're the wrong one.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:15 pm 
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That's a rather close-minded view though, isn't it? I mean, I can understand your difficulty in not knowing how someone could possibly know that. At the same time, you're not them. You've never been through that, you have no idea how it feels. So, is it really your place to say that an 8 year or an 18 month old couldn't possibly know that they were the wrong gender? I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't really make sense to make such assumptions when you've never been in their place.


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
But when you start the trip before puberty, there's a good chance that your map isn't accurate.


If this was true then there would be a lot more regret about having the treatment, because these people would have been lead down the 'wrong' path. Since it seems people are so happy about it afterwards, and you didnt reject that paper, you cant really say there is a good chance the map isnt accurate.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:19 pm 
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I'd like to point to this too: http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/sex ... pment.html

Quote:
Gender awareness. By age 2 or 3, a child starts to develop a sense of being a male or female. This awareness is called gender identity. Kids this age start to understand the difference between boys and girls, and can identify themselves as one or the other. Some people think gender identity is biologically determined and some say it's a product of a child's environment. Most likely, it's a combination of both.


Not the most scientific source, but I'll work under the assumption that they have good sources to back up what they're saying. Is 18 months maybe a wee bit young? Possibly. But each child develops differently. You wouldn't think a 8 year old could do complex math, but we got little child geniuses running around proving us wrong there.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:21 pm 
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The paper Petey cited was not the subject of this article, it was possibly a completely different type of treatment, with probably mostly patients that had their therapy and/or sex change after puberty.


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