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Squanto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:22 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
That's a rather close-minded view though, isn't it? I mean, I can understand your difficulty in not knowing how someone could possibly know that. At the same time, you're not them. You've never been through that, you have no idea how it feels. So, is it really your place to say that an 8 year or an 18 month old couldn't possibly know that they were the wrong gender? I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't really make sense to make such assumptions when you've never been in their place.


When I ask some friends, two clinical psychologists and one with a doctorate in sociology, and they say 'no way in hell' an 18 month old baby can reasonably understand these concepts, I tend to believe them.

I'm not trying to be insensitive here. There is an age that I'm sure individuals can reasonably make that choice. 8 is a maybe. I'm not one to say.

But I sure as hell am not going to believe anyone who says their 18 month old baby, who barely understands the words that they are saying, and has barely been walking for a year, can make an informed decision about their own sexuality.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:25 pm 
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But if a child, from 18 months old up the age of 8 says so, would you believe them then? Yeah, I would. I'm not suggesting in any way that a child start any from of hormonal therapy at the age of 18. No doctor in the world would believe that. However, I do believe that if a child consistently, over the course of many years is adamant about their wrong sex, I'm inclined to believe them. They should be allowed to at least have puberty pushed back a little, so they have time to make a more clear cut decision. That, along with therapy, seems to be a good route to me.

And again, I'd like to reference to my last post. Gender identity does start relatively early in a child's development--by the age of 2 or 3. I would not be entirely surprised if around that age, a child started saying that they didn't feel like the sex that they were. There's also a difference between understanding the concept of being wrong sex, and feeling the wrong sex. A young child, in all likelihood, doesn't understand the concept that sexual abuse is wrong. But when her uncle crawls into bed with her at night, she sure feels wrong, doesn't she?


Last edited by peteythedancingsabre on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
The paper Petey cited was not the subject of this article, it was possibly a completely different type of treatment, with probably mostly patients that had their therapy and/or sex change after puberty.



What? Why would they post that, it would have almost no bearing.

(just checked)

(facepalm)

Well, my bad then.


Last edited by YankeeInRaleigh on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:30 pm 
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It's no problem.

BTW Petey is a she. (LOL at the irony).


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:31 pm 
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I never, in any way, said that paper was conclusive. In fact, I specifically said it DIDN'T. I even said the faults included in the study, mentioning that it doesn't conclusively prove anything, but simply SUGGESTS that there is a low level of regret when it comes to these procedures.

Quote:
Now obviously this is only one study, and is in no way conclusive or generalizable to the entire population. That said, this study at least suggests that it's very unlikely that someone who went through with a procedure felt regret afterwards. Now this is also in adults, and I don't know what, if any, procedures these people went through in their youth. However, it's likely that at least some of them went through the procedures we're talking about in this thread. Most patients are incredibly satisfied with the results of gender reassignment. Those that aren't are unhappy with the surgery, not with the sex they became.

It's one study, yes, but one that at least starts towards showing that the likelihood of regret later in life is pretty low, especially given the hoops one has to jump through to get things done when it comes to gender reassignment.


I can't lose credibility for something that I specifically pointed out the flaws in. It was simply to suggest, to someone's point, that the likelihood of someone wanting to de-transition was very low. I could try and find other sources if I so chose, but they're difficult to find.

And yes, I'm a she haha.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:32 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
But if a child, from 18 months old up the age of 8 says so, would you believe them then? Yeah, I would. I'm not suggesting in any way that a child start any from of hormonal therapy at the age of 18. No doctor in the world would believe that. However, I do believe that if a child consistently, over the course of many years is adamant about their wrong sex, I'm inclined to believe them. They should be allowed to at least have puberty pushed back a little, so they have time to make a more clear cut decision. That, along with therapy, seems to be a good route to me.


But if someone KNOWS from that age on, why do they need more time to make a choice?


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:33 pm 
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They must need a certain amount of years of torture to be sure.


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:34 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
I never, in any way, said that paper was conclusive. In fact, I specifically said it DIDN'T. I even said the faults included in the study, mentioning that it doesn't conclusively prove anything, but simply SUGGESTS that there is a low level of regret when it comes to these procedures.

Quote:
Now obviously this is only one study, and is in no way conclusive or generalizable to the entire population. That said, this study at least suggests that it's very unlikely that someone who went through with a procedure felt regret afterwards. Now this is also in adults, and I don't know what, if any, procedures these people went through in their youth. However, it's likely that at least some of them went through the procedures we're talking about in this thread. Most patients are incredibly satisfied with the results of gender reassignment. Those that aren't are unhappy with the surgery, not with the sex they became.

It's one study, yes, but one that at least starts towards showing that the likelihood of regret later in life is pretty low, especially given the hoops one has to jump through to get things done when it comes to gender reassignment.


I can't lose credibility for something that I specifically pointed out the flaws in. It was simply to suggest, to someone's point, that the likelihood of someone wanting to de-transition was very low. I could try and find other sources if I so chose, but they're difficult to find.

And yes, I'm a she haha.



haha, yeah, sorry, I edited my post a couple times because I was trying to reply quickly, so looked at the study, replied...then looked at the context you'd supplied, realized you'd sort of addressed those concerns and that your credibility should not be impuned because of it. My bad!


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:35 pm 
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...because you have to wait til the age of puberty to start hormone treatments?


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Squanto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:38 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
...because you have to wait til the age of puberty to start hormone treatment?


Then there shouldn't be a need to use puberty delaying treatments.

If someone KNOWS at that young an age, then once they are physically capable of doing so, let them start hormone therapy. Why the need to delay it if they KNOW?

If anything delaying puberty to allow someone to make a CHOICE flys directly in the face of what so many homosexuals feel : They can't CHOOSE to be that way, they ARE that way. So by delaying something so they can CHOOSE should be pretty offensive.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 pm 
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My guess would be that starting hormone therapy at too young an age can be risky for a child. I'm not entirely sure, as I haven't seen research on the matter. I'm currently looking up now to see what I can find.

Also, the idea of a choice isn't in the choice of being a man or a woman. It's in the choice of whether or not they want to go through therapy. There are some transgenders who choose not to have therapy for a variety of different reasons.


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:56 pm 
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I can't really find anything that conclusively says why they don't do it earlier but my two guesses would be: A) As I said, it might be risky if you start it too young, so waiting til puberty is safer. or B) It would be rather pointless. By this I mean, it might be costly and ineffective to start hormone treatments before puberty. That is, how much testosterone/estrogen do young children really release? I have no idea, but my guess would probably be not much. It seems to be that it would be extremely expensive to administer hormones to a child from a young age in incredibly small doses, when they can simply put in higher doses that will be more effective when a child hits puberty. The way to offset the psychological issues involved is, of course, therapy, which all these children go through prior to starting hormone therapy.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Is anyone besides me calling bullshit on the "I remember when I was 18 months" statement? When I hear statements like that, I immediately discredit whoever says it as gross exaggeration, for emphasis.

I don't remember anything before 4 years, and even those are fleeting memories.

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:20 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
Is anyone besides me calling bullshit on the "I remember when I was 18 months" statement? When I hear statements like that, I immediately discredit whoever says it as gross exaggeration, for emphasis.

I don't remember anything before 4 years, and even those are fleeting memories.


actually, i do. but i have a photographic memory. i remember being in my crib in our first house. i was born in 84, we moved from the house in 86. in fact, i shocked my mom a few years ago when i described the houses floorpan, explaining where my room was (last room down the hall, on the left) and even describing the kitchen. i remember it.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:29 pm 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Is anyone besides me calling bullshit on the "I remember when I was 18 months" statement? When I hear statements like that, I immediately discredit whoever says it as gross exaggeration, for emphasis.

I don't remember anything before 4 years, and even those are fleeting memories.


actually, i do. but i have a photographic memory. .


Ok, so freaks aside.... ;)

For real though, if you have a photographic memory, shouldn't you be, like, a lawyer or doctor or something?

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:47 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Is anyone besides me calling bullshit on the "I remember when I was 18 months" statement? When I hear statements like that, I immediately discredit whoever says it as gross exaggeration, for emphasis.

I don't remember anything before 4 years, and even those are fleeting memories.


actually, i do. but i have a photographic memory. .


Ok, so freaks aside.... ;)

For real though, if you have a photographic memory, shouldn't you be, like, a lawyer or doctor or something?


yeah, im 100% apathetic. i used to get 4.0s in college, and id never pick up a book outside of class.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:54 pm 
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I hate people like you, irony haha. I've always wanted a photographic memory. I have a really good memory for faces, but that's about the extent of any memory skills I have.


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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:58 pm 
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half the time, i wouldnt even BUY a book. id take notes, and just writing the stuff down, id remember it.

its certainly not fair i was born with such a gift, and i completely squander it.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Yeah....

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Holy fucking fuck...Boyes couldn't suck a dick if it landed in his mouth.


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PatGreen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:58 pm 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
half the time, i wouldnt even BUY a book. id take notes, and just writing the stuff down, id remember it.

its certainly not fair i was born with such a gift, and i completely squander it.

okay whitney houston


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