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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Sigh... 1980, you really don't have much of an understanding about transgender issues, do you? I encourage you to educate yourself on how these issues work. These kids aren't influenced into thinking they're the opposite gender. Perhaps some are, but I'd imagine that would be rare. These kids FEEL different. And you can't just ignore those feelings simply because they're kids. Again, it's like a child having depression or schizophrenia, but you simply ignore it because they're a child and they don't know anything about anything! That's insane, unhealthy, and incredibly counter productive.

Blocking hormones doesn't block the way a child feels about themselves. All it does is block hormones. It doesn't medically alter whether or not a kid feels like a girl or a boy (or at least, not to my knowledge), so to suggest that these blockers effect the way a child perceives themselves doesn't make much sense to me. Secondly, this expensive procedure isn't even done for YEARS. No one simply jumps into it. So I highly doubt that a child would simply continue with it due to guilt.

Puberty, in all likelihood, wouldn't change their mind... at all. Because that's not how transgenderism works. A girl who feels like a boy can't just grow boobs and say OH WELP I WANNA BE A GIRL NOW. That isn't how it works. That girl is psychologically and mentally (and in some cases, there are some physical tracers that signify) that she is, in fact, a boy, even though she has a vagina rather than a penis. Going through puberty wouldn't change that and to think so is a bit of a ridiculous notion. It's like saying puberty would make a gay child straight. No. It wouldn't.


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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:13 pm 
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I don't know that I have a whole lot to offer here that anyone is going to treat with a modicum of respect or sincerity since I've made it perfectly clear how I feel about this site and most of the people on it. The only reason I have anything to say at all is because this place has more traffic than the blog my partner and I have begun to discuss and provide education on these things. It is a learning experience that I expect no one to take advantage of, but ill try.

I did say partner in the above since I am dating a biological female currently pretreatment and undergoing counseling for hormone therapy. S/he's 21 and s/he cant even touch anything until s/he's been through counseling. This isn't something that's done on a whim, even for adults.

I feel like a majority of the people posting here didn't really read the article or try to understand gender identity disorder. Though to be fair the article didn't have any sort of medical depth (that no one would have understood anyways). I think people simply looked at the numbers, looked at their flawed understanding of the transition process and made their own judgments. I'm not even sure anyone can fully understand gender identity disorder without being transgendered themselves, or a doctor. Our understanding of gender is so rigid and unyielding that crossing that gap is difficult. On some level we can understand depression, or ocd, or schizophrenia because we've felt aspects of those disorders ourselves at one time or another. This is different. We define ourselves do much by aspects of our gender that a lot of people have trouble stepping outside of the gender binary.

And it should be noted that some of these kids are gender non conforming and not transgendered. That's what the counseling us for. Just like some kids aren't depressed, have add or adhd or whatever. This isn't I'm a boy and I like pink...okay hormone blockers for you! Which is the point everyone seems to keep ignoring. I could probably dig up some more detailed descriptions of gender identity disorder, and the transitioning process, and if anyone is interested, you can contact me elsewhere. I won't post them here because I doubt anyone would read, understand, or trust them.

It's amusing to see people who have complained in the past about others' commentary on how they raise their kids offering that same type of commentary now.

This has been a wonderful experience of denigrating something (and my partner and myself) based on assumptions, maybes, and a general lack of understanding and an inherent uncomfortability with things that are different. Like I said, if you're curious, you know where to find me, otherwise I expect to be told my opinion is wrong, to have my sexuality questioned, to have parental experience presented as some magical knowledge of medicine, and to be emphatically reminded of why I left, which may in fact be similar to the closed mindedness I just criticized. Hey, prove me wrong.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:27 pm 
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I've done a bit more digging, and it looks like this has been going on for 10 years now. So, it's not like this guy just thought this up, but on the flip side there has not been enough history at this point to know long term effects.

As to the science...well, it kind of makes sense actually. They delay the onset of puberty, and then supplement the person with the hormones of the 'target' sex. Apparently, if you let puberty proceed with the native (or, 'wrong' in this case) hormones, then it's almost impossible to reverse those effects. BUT, if the 'right' hormones are used instead, then development does in fact lead the person down a path where they will physically resemble the target sex.

Interesting. The science part of me thinks this is less objectionable than before. I cannot identify with the children, or how they 'know' this is the thing to do...but I imagine after YEARS of hearing the same thing over and over, parents must start to trust that their kids are not insane.

I'm taking a step back from my initial (WHAT!) reaction, more information needed.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:40 pm 
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CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
I don't know that I have a whole lot to offer here that anyone is going to treat with a modicum of respect or sincerity since I've made it perfectly clear how I feel about this site and most of the people on it. The only reason I have anything to say at all is because this place has more traffic than the blog my partner and I have begun to discuss and provide education on these things. It is a learning experience that I expect no one to take advantage of, but ill try.

I did say partner in the above since I am dating a biological female currently pretreatment and undergoing counseling for hormone therapy. S/he's 21 and s/he cant even touch anything until s/he's been through counseling. This isn't something that's done on a whim, even for adults.

I feel like a majority of the people posting here didn't really read the article or try to understand gender identity disorder. Though to be fair the article didn't have any sort of medical depth (that no one would have understood anyways). I think people simply looked at the numbers, looked at their flawed understanding of the transition process and made their own judgments. I'm not even sure anyone can fully understand gender identity disorder without being transgendered themselves, or a doctor. Our understanding of gender is so rigid and unyielding that crossing that gap is difficult. On some level we can understand depression, or ocd, or schizophrenia because we've felt aspects of those disorders ourselves at one time or another. This is different. We define ourselves do much by aspects of our gender that a lot of people have trouble stepping outside of the gender binary.

And it should be noted that some of these kids are gender non conforming and not transgendered. That's what the counseling us for. Just like some kids aren't depressed, have add or adhd or whatever. This isn't I'm a boy and I like pink...okay hormone blockers for you! Which is the point everyone seems to keep ignoring. I could probably dig up some more detailed descriptions of gender identity disorder, and the transitioning process, and if anyone is interested, you can contact me elsewhere. I won't post them here because I doubt anyone would read, understand, or trust them.

It's amusing to see people who have complained in the past about others' commentary on how they raise their kids offering that same type of commentary now.

This has been a wonderful experience of denigrating something (and my partner and myself) based on assumptions, maybes, and a general lack of understanding and an inherent uncomfortability with things that are different. Like I said, if you're curious, you know where to find me, otherwise I expect to be told my opinion is wrong, to have my sexuality questioned, to have parental experience presented as some magical knowledge of medicine, and to be emphatically reminded of why I left, which may in fact be similar to the closed mindedness I just criticized. Hey, prove me wrong.


I haven't seen a single person here attack or say anything negative about transgender people. What has been said is a concern for misdiagnosis and lack of long term physical and psychological effects. A lot of concern for treating such young children has also been the big focus. If your point was to simply come here and say "I have an opinion but you guys are too pig headed to care or understand. I think you didn't really read the article anyway because you are all uncomfortable with things that are different!" well then okay. :?

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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:45 pm 
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I understand that people get so much of their personal identity from aspects of their biological gender so it can be difficult, if not impossible to understand just what a transgendered individual is dealing with. Understanding it is like transitioning itself, a process, one that for cis (non trans) can never be completed. So there is a disconnect thats always going to be there I think. Which makes this a difficult topic, especially when people are going to open fire on it, or what they perceive it to be. Gender identity syndrome isn't that different than anything else of that classification, there is a counseling process to figure out just what (if anything) is present. Sometimes your kid has adhd...sometimes they're just a shithead. (And let's not forget that many of THOSE drugs have a TON of side effects.)

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:48 pm 
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I'm reading this, and I can't bring myself to any kind of reaction, really. I think that starting some sort of hormone therapy at such a young age is wrong, there's no doubt in my mind about that; however, I'm not sure what to think of all of the gender identification issues that we've seen recently (coupled with the droves of teen/preteen suicide) - if we're witnessing some sort of evolution in human emotion and identity, or if we, as a society, are scrambling for reasons why we're sad or feel different because calling someone a pussy and telling them to man up isn't "politically correct" any more.

Going off on a tangent, I'm going to blame the wave of political correctness for the past 20-30 years of mediocrity as a nation. When it was ok to kick someone in the ass and tell them to work harder and strive to achieve something, we were, well, successful.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:48 pm 
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The concern for misdiagnosis and treating such young children is a valid one. I understand why anyone could have an issue with it. However, I think the thing many neglect to understand is how highly regulated this is. Even as an adult, it takes forever to get anywhere when it comes to gender reassignment. You first off have to go to therapy throughout the entire process. It takes a while to even get around to hormone replacements. Then, before you can even think about having surgery, you have to live a few years as the preferred gender of choice. If, after all of this (which takes 5+ years, mind you, sometimes much longer), doctors and psychologists determine that you're ready, you can FINALLY have surgery.

Given that it's so difficult for an adult to get these things done, does anyone really think that it's easy to do so for children? No. It takes a lot of time. It's a transitioning process. Doctors and parents are just as concerned as you are for misdiagnosis, and physical/mental well being. That's why they take their time with these things, to ensure that they don't end up messing up the kid's life. While I understand the issues you guys have with it, they're unfounded. If you do a little research on how this stuff works, I think you'll see that.

Also, I don't think Alex was necessarily perceiving anything in this particular thread as an attack... just simply noting things in the past that have happened.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:49 pm 
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CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
I understand that people get so much of their personal identity from aspects of their biological gender so it can be difficult, if not impossible to understand just what a transgendered individual is dealing with. Understanding it is like transitioning itself, a process, one that for cis (non trans) can never be completed. So there is a disconnect thats always going to be there I think. Which makes this a difficult topic, especially when people are going to open fire on it, or what they perceive it to be. Gender identity syndrome isn't that different than anything else of that classification, there is a counseling process to figure out just what (if anything) is present. Sometimes your kid has adhd...sometimes they're just a shithead. (And let's not forget that many of THOSE drugs have a TON of side effects.)



I agree with you on the side effects part 100%. That being said, generally speaking treatment for ADHD doesn't touch on root issues of what it is to be us like sexual hormone treatment does.

What are the long term effects of having these treatments at such a young age? I'm being genuine. Let us say that a patient goes through this and then sometime in the future as an adult decides that for whatever reason it wasn't the road for them. What are their options? What can they do? Are they stuck with permanent physical changes?

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:

Let us say that a patient goes through this and then sometime in the future as an adult decides that for whatever reason it wasn't the road for them. What are their options? What can they do? Are they stuck with permanent physical changes?


yes, they will have developed physically as one sex, that can not be undone.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:55 pm 
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"Sigh..."

I really don't think I've come across so uneducated as to require the condescending tone. The one flammable word I used was "quack", which I'm sure these doctors are not, but we all get to use silly words around here for entertainment purposes. OTOH, you're making a number of assumptions about what you think I know/don't know.

1- I don't think kids are necessarily influenced into thinking they're the other gender.
2- I don't think that kids "...don't know anything about anything."
3- I don't think hormone treatment necessarily alters whether a child feels they are a boy or girl.
4- I don't think kids and their families or doctors are simply jumping into a sex change procedure.

You're last paragraph is all that I possibly dispute. I highly doubt that a child can make a well-informed decision about their gender and/or sexuality until they've gone through puberty. To dispute this, you suggest that a child can determine these things before they even truly know what it's like to be sexually attracted to another person, let alone truly know what sex is about. That's my beef with this process - allowing a child to determine a path toward possible sex change, a path that in and of itself can alter the decision, before the child even really knows about gender and sexuality.

CV, you're getting bent over an assumption that I, or people that have the same opinions on this as me, are uncomfortable or otherwise dismissive or denigrating of the LGBT community. I don't care if a child thinks they're straight or gay or wants to be straight or gay, or bi or tarnsgender. I DON'T CARE. What matters is allowing them to be fully informed about themselves before determining a path toward sex change. I think puberty is one factor in being fully informed about one's own gender and sexuality. To dispute that would, imo, take quite a bit of convincing.


Last edited by Sabresfansince1980 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:57 pm 
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It certainly would be interesting to see some studies done on whether or not these kids regret their decision, DF. My personal opinion would be that it would be extremely unlikely and very rare. It takes a lot to get this procedure done, and it's not something someone just jumps into just because. It seems doubtful that someone would decide as an adult that they wished they hadn't gone through with this process.

Again, that comes from the point of, this is how they feel. It's not some phase. It's difficult... nay, impossible to understand how anyone could feel different than what they're sex is. All of us here, men and women, feel like our assigned gender, at least as far as I'm aware. It's a bit too far for us to imagine being anything else. So seeing someone else be so sure of themselves over something like that does seem a bit crazy. However, it is genuinely, for the majority of cases, that these people don't just "feel" that they're the wrong gender, but that they ARE the wrong gender. And in the same sense, saying that they may change their minds in the future is like saying a gay man will change his sexuality in the future--it's highly unlikely. A gay man won't suddenly become straight, nor will a transgender suddenly want to switch back to their original gender.


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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:04 pm 
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How many straight or gay people could ever be sure they were straight or gay before going through puberty?


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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
"Sigh..."

I really don't think I've come across so uneducated as to require the condescending tone. The one flammable word I used was "quack", which I'm sure these doctors are not, but we all get to use silly words around here for entertainment purposes. OTOH, you're making a number of assumptions about what you think I know/don't know.

1- I don't think kids are necessarily influenced into thinking they're the other gender.
2- I don't think that kids "...don't know anything about anything."
3- I don't think hormone treatment alters whether a child feels they are a boy or girl.
4- I don't think kids and their families or doctors are simply jumping into a sex change procedure.

You're last paragraph is all that I possibly dispute. I highly doubt that a child can make a well-informed decision about their gender and/or sexuality until they've gone through puberty. To dispute this, you suggest that a child can determine these things before they even truly know what it's like to be sexually attracted to another person, let alone truly know what sex is about. That's my beef with this process - allowing a child to determine a path toward possible sex change, a path that in and of itself can alter the decision, before the child even really knows about gender and sexuality.

CV, you're getting bent over an assumption that I, or people that have the same opinions on this as me, are uncomfortable or otherwise dismissive or denigrating of the LGBT community. I don't care if a child thinks they're straight or gay or wants to be straight or gay, or bi or tarnsgender. I DON'T CARE. What matters is allowing them to be fully informed about themselves before determining a path toward sex change. I think puberty is one factor in being fully informed about one's own gender and sexuality. To dispute that would, imo, take quite a bit of convincing.


I wasn't trying to suggest you were uneducated with my tone, and I apologize if you feel that way. It wasn't my intent. I just find myself frustrated when people try and discuss these sorts of issues without having an understanding of how it all works, as I don't think you have a full understanding of transgender issues, and no, that isn't meant as an insult. I also apologize if I made assumptions based off of what you said. That's what I inferred and my inference was apparently wrong.

Why exactly is going through puberty the defining point of understanding? Yes, I understand that going through puberty is a huge change, and many things about a person change with them. However, a person can still have an understanding of themselves and of how they feel without having gone through puberty. Yes, these kids are young, but they're not so young as to not understand how they feel. Furthermore, the purpose of hormone blockers is to hold it off until their at a closer age where they can make a more well rounded decision. Yes, 12 and 13 is still a very young age to decide whether they want hormone replacement therapy, but I think after years of going through this process, if that's what they're ready to do, they should be allowed to do so. To say they shouldn't would be the same as forcing a gay child to pretend their straight until they hit puberty, so that they can see what they want. Again, that isn't how it works. A gay child is going to be gay before and after puberty. In the same sense, a truly transgendered person is going to be transgendered before and after puberty. Going through puberty simply messes things up, because it will require them to get extensive surgery when they're older to fix what went wrong.

Also to your post... um... I'm pretty sure many gay people were sure. Perhaps puberty could have "comfirmed" it, but most gay people have known all their lives. Furthermore, you're mixing up sex and sexuality. There is a difference. Going through puberty doesn't change what your sex is or what you feel your sex is. Puberty changes sex drive and sexual attraction. Throwing sexual attraction into the picture doesn't change whether or not someone feels like a girl or a boy.


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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:06 pm 
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The whole purpose of hormone blocking therapy is to delay the onset of permanent changes one way or the other. They are reversible, and the article mentioned that they had not seen any complications to the type of hormone blocking treatment they reference. I believe that taking opposite gender hormones as one gender it the other post puberty, I.e. testosterone or estrogen is also reversible. My partner is months away from that point should s/he decide to go that route. Surgery is only "reversible" in that you can undo it with another surgery, but in that case you're likely getting a bastardization of what you once had. Many trans never undergo surgery for that reason.

I'm not sure there's a large enough sample size to truly touch on long term physical effects with validity. Long term mental effects likely vary person to person as do the effects of anything encountered in youth.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
I think puberty is one factor in being fully informed about one's own gender and sexuality.



SF1980, I think you've hit upon the real problem here. The point of this therapy is to supplant native puberty with...tailored puberty, so to speak. To 'start on the right foot' as it were. Scientifically it's a really valid, common sense way to approach the problem, and I cannot say there is a problem with it (viewed in a vacuum, or course)

On the other hand, you make an excellent point in that people dont really KNOW THEMSELVES before puberty, and that, that process happening organically might very well be an essential step towards that very understanding, which would be required to make this an informed decision, which would mean it's too late to MAKE the decision because you've already gone through puberty...

Fuckit. we have no idea what life is like for these people. I really doubt there are ANY parents out there who WANT their kid, their little baby, to believe they are the wrong sex. It must take years and years of the kid letting them know this is happening for them to finally do something about it, and i'm guessing they're not thrilled. Fuckit, let them do what they want to do, this is too foreign to judge with no real perspective on the subject.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
How many straight or gay people could ever be sure they were straight or gay before going through puberty?

That's a terrible question. The answer is going to be "Depends"...

I've never felt any sexual attraction to a man. I've got a few guy friends that I'll admit I love, but if you can't admit you love your best friend, I'd accuse you of being a homophobe.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:12 pm 
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peteythedancingsabre wrote:
It certainly would be interesting to see some studies done on whether or not these kids regret their decision, DF. My personal opinion would be that it would be extremely unlikely and very rare. It takes a lot to get this procedure done, and it's not something someone just jumps into just because. It seems doubtful that someone would decide as an adult that they wished they hadn't gone through with this process.

Again, that comes from the point of, this is how they feel. It's not some phase. It's difficult... nay, impossible to understand how anyone could feel different than what they're sex is. All of us here, men and women, feel like our assigned gender, at least as far as I'm aware. It's a bit too far for us to imagine being anything else. So seeing someone else be so sure of themselves over something like that does seem a bit crazy. However, it is genuinely, for the majority of cases, that these people don't just "feel" that they're the wrong gender, but that they ARE the wrong gender. And in the same sense, saying that they may change their minds in the future is like saying a gay man will change his sexuality in the future--it's highly unlikely. A gay man won't suddenly become straight, nor will a transgender suddenly want to switch back to their original gender.


No disrespect but we're not talking about adults here. Children who have no life experience, no idea what sex or attraction is and can not, in my opinion be trusted to make a decision like that. I'm not a conservative, I'm not narrow minded by any means and I have experience in both caring for mental health patients and raising kids. My son is seven and if he said he didn't feel like he is a boy I'd of course be super concerned, confused and want to help hm the best way I could. That being said I would be very careful about indulging those thoughts at his age. Way too many small, temporary issues have been blown into huge life altering problems by well intentioned parents. On one side you have children who are gay or feel like they are in the wrong skin and the treatment could work well for them but on the other I am concerned about confused children who get started on a track towards hormones therapy when they shouldn't be. And what damage does that do to a child who is misdiagnosed?

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:15 pm 
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Again, it's a heavily regulated procedure. Are there times where a child could be misdiagnosed? Possibly, but it's incredibly unlikely. There may be well-intentioned parents who lead their confused child to a therapist, thinking that they have some sort of gender identity disorder. In those cases, I'd be willing to bet that the therapist would set those parents straight. Psychologists have a very deep understanding of how these issues work. They may not know everything, but I trust that they'd be able to make an accurate diagnosis most, if not all of the time. Furthermore, it's such a long process. It takes years, and a lot of devotion. It seems unlikely to me that someone who was misdiagnosed would end up getting through the entire process without someone catching that he or she didn't have a gender identity disorder.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:17 pm 
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As far as ADD and ADHD are concerned, I watched a great video (a TED talk) about how children over the last 20 years have been overstimulated from birth and that it programs them to be accepting X input at all times, when in reality they're receiving X-n.

One example shown was a baby Mozart thing, every 3 seconds a new image was shown on the screen. They translated this stimulation to an experiment with mice, and over time, they would put a mouse in a cage with two constants. When one of the constants was changed, the mouse that was not overstimulated spent more time around the new object, examining it. The overstimulated mouse didn't seem to be able to discern (or didn't care) that there was something new in its environment.

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:19 pm 
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NYI-

It might be a terrible question, but it was an honest one. You're right though...it "depends". When a child delays their natural physical development, that is a non-reversable cog in the machine. Sure, hormone therapy can be stopped and kids can "go back", but once you alter development...it's altered. Then to eventually decide to a sex change means that you never gave your biological sex and gender a real chance, just like the other side of the argument says you're not giving the gender change a real chance after puberty.

Saying that someone's straight/gay status can depend on puberty allows that maybe deciding on a sex change prior to puberty might not bew the best course.


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