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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
'Natural Born Female' is not clear cut as it does not specify sex or gender.


It's as clear cut as it gets.

This individual was born with full male reproductive organs. He went through gender reassignment to become female. By any interpretation, this person was not naturally born as a female.

The fact that the pagent even put this question on the application clearly means that the organizers considered the possibility of a transgendered individual applying, and did not want them to be eligible, as is their right as a private organization.* If you could say 'Well, I was born with male reproductive organs and genetics, but I FELT like I was female, so I should be considered female.", then you could just as easily say "Well, I was born white, but I FEEL like I'm black, so I should be considered african american."

She's a transgendered female, and the pagent rules specifically forbid that person from entering. A court of law will determine if the restriction is legal in Canada, but past that nothing 'wrong' was done.

* Assuming they follow a similar stance as the US does.


This shows a lack of understanding. Perhaps that is inherent, perhaps it was just the way it was written, I don't know. Gender Identity Disorder (GID) and/or being transgendered is about more than just FEELING one gender or the other. Granted there are some whose transgenderism IS predicated solely on feelings, but there are others where it is predicated on brain chemistry and genetics. Again, that's why I point to the difference in sex and gender. Sex is biology, dicks, vaginas, etc., gender is more complicated. I don't pretend to know Talackova's medical history but saying she was not a naturally born female and that this is as clear cut as it gets is not fully grasping the situation. (And again I haven't found the form itself or the rules which may well go into more detail on sex/gender, so you may be unintentionally correct.)

On a random note, referring to a trans individual by the wrong gender, including the use of pronouns (i.e. he, him) is offensive to trans individuals, though I think your usage was intended to be indicative of the born biology of Talackova.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:44 pm 
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From a legal perspective, if you came out with man parts, you were born a man. If you came out with lady parts, you're a lady. Period. End of story. Legally, a male who has not yet undergone gender reassignment surgery is still a male, and vice versa.

I have not seen the pageant entry form either, but I'd bet my house that it simply says 'Are you a natural born female?', and that's it, because the overwhelming majority of applicants are not going to need a massaging of the meaning to answer the question correctly. I can guarantee that the organizers didn't consider transgenderism when they wrote the damn application.

Ms. Talackova should have known that her situation wasn't a common one, and reached out to the pageant organizers before submitting the application to discuss the specifics of her case. She didn't, because she clearly knew she'd be kicked out once they found out, and she could spin it for publicity.

I mean no disrespect to transgendered individuals, but at some point they need to stop crying foul for every perceived slight and be proactive about discussing their situation beforehand when things like this come up. A simple phone call might have handled this issue before it even became one.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
I mean no disrespect to transgendered individuals, but at some point they need to stop crying foul for every perceived slight and be proactive about discussing their situation beforehand when things like this come up.


This.

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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:10 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
Squanto wrote:
I mean no disrespect to transgendered individuals, but at some point they need to stop crying foul for every perceived slight and be proactive about discussing their situation beforehand when things like this come up.


This.


I also have to agree. I've spent a lot of time around transgendered individuals as one would expect and there is a certain defensiveness there that can be inhibition to what they're trying to achieve. On one hand, I can't blame them for it since they're one of the most misunderstood communities and often an afterthought when it comes to LGBT rights, but there is a definite air of "people are deliberately out to offend me."

I'm reluctant to call something transphobia. It's a complicated issue and I think trans-misunderstanding is far more prevalent. (And perhaps there will always be a disconnect that cis-gendered people will never be able to bridge.) I think trans people do themselves a disservice with being so standoffish and unwilling to explain themselves at times. Unlike being gay, where most understand, the term 'trans' is not enough of an explanation for most people.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:13 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
Squanto wrote:
I mean no disrespect to transgendered individuals, but at some point they need to stop crying foul for every perceived slight and be proactive about discussing their situation beforehand when things like this come up.


This.

every goddamn "minority" group does. this is horseshit that anybody has/can take offense to anything in this thread. forcing people to walk on eggshells and not just dealing with how some things are going to come off regardless of intent just segregates groups more. it's annoying.


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:38 am 
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What makes me more mad than that is the people of "majority" groups who go to bat for the others. It's like STFU with your BS and guilty conscience...you don't ACTUALLY know how they feel....

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:13 am 
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the worst is when white people "correct" me when i say "black" to describe people.
"you should say african american!"
no, i shouldn't, asshole. you should stop being an idiot. BLACK people come from africa, jamaica, france, canada, egypt, britain, italy, belize, argentina, and everywhere else.

i don't introduce myself as irish american. black is not offensive. negro, nigger, jigaboo, yes- those are offensive. actually some old people say negro and have no idea it's offensive. to them, it isn't...it was the nice way to talk about them when they were young. actually my grampa says "colored" and i always have to tell him that he can't say that in public anymore because it's NOT okay with black people on the whole. but COME ON white people, it's not racist to point out some dude in a room as "the tall black guy".


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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:56 am 
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Aaaaaaaaaand they reverse the decision.

Quote:
New York (CNN) -- A Canadian beauty pageant contestant who was disqualified when the Miss Universe Canada organizers discovered she was transgender said Tuesday she had been devastated by the decision and wanted a clear change in the rules.

After initially disqualifying Talackova, organizers of the Miss Universe beauty pageant reversed course late Monday, saying she can participate.

In a statement, the Miss Universe Organization said Jenna Talackova can compete provided "she meets the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions."

The statement, however, did not elaborate on what the requirements were.
Canada's Jenna Talackova (right) at the Miss International Queen 2010 beauty pageant in Pattaya, Thailand.

The 6-foot-1-inch blond model told a news conference Tuesday of the pain the row had caused her.

"I am a woman. I was devastated and I felt that excluding me for the reason that they gave was unjust," she said.

Talackova, a 23-year-old Vancouver resident, also called on Donald Trump, who owns the Miss Universe competition, to state "in plain words" whether she will be able to compete and go forward to the Miss Universe final if she wins her country's contest.

"I have never asked for any special consideration. I only wanted to compete," she said.

"I also want Mr. Trump to clearly state that this rule will be eliminated because I do not want any other woman to suffer the discrimination that I have to endure."

Speaking to CNN Tuesday, Trump said that according to the laws of Canada and the United States, Talackova should be allowed to enter the pageant.

"So she will be entering the Miss Canada pageant, but we went strictly by the laws," he said.

"As with any competition, the Miss Universe pageant has rules that apply to all of its franchises around the world. Such rules include, but are not limited to, citizenship, age, and marital status requirements. Additionally, the rules currently state that all contestants must be naturally born females," the Miss Universe organization said.

Those rules are not posted on the Miss Universe website.

High profile feminist lawyer Gloria Allred, speaking alongside Talackova, also said Trump needed to clear up the confusion over Talackova's participation.

"We need a clear answer -- not a wimpy, wishy-washy type of answer -- but something that we can take to the bank. Will Jenna be allowed to compete or not? Will he eliminate this abhorrent rule or not?"

Allred said Talackova, who until Tuesday had not spoken to reporters, was considering all legal options.

The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, or GLAAD, commended the pageant organizer's decision Monday night.

"The Miss Universe Organization made the right decision and has taken an important first step," the group said.

Talackova was one of the 65 finalists selected to contend for the title of Miss Universe Canada and the honor of representing her country in the Miss Universe competition.

But organizers told her last month she could not compete because she lied about having undergone sexual reassignment surgery and did not meet requirements for the pageant.

At the time, the Miss Universe Organization said current rules state that all contestants must be a "naturally born female."

In a 2010 interview in Thailand, where she was competing for Miss International Queen, a competition for transgender women, Talackova said she knew she was a girl at age 4. She said she started hormone therapy at age 14 and underwent sexual reassignment surgery at 19.

After Talackova's disqualification, social media users flooded the Facebook page of Miss Universe Canada with comments criticizing the decision.

A petition started on the social change website Change.org garnered more than 41,000 signatures calling for organizers to reverse their ruling.

The 61st annual Miss Universe Canada Pageant will be held in Toronto on May 19.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:23 am 
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Good that they're following the law.

Although if Gloria Allred is involved, they might just be caving to shut that cackling bitch up. :)


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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:34 am 
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PatGreen wrote:
"the tall black guy".


Oh, so now all black dudes are tall? Bigot.


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PatGreen
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:38 am 
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brilliant. you sir, need a medal for the most hilarious and dry tidbit of the week.

for now, place your hand on the monitor, knowing that i am doing the same. at that moment, realize that you and i are sharing a high five from over 500 miles away.


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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:13 pm 
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she looks woman enough for me....

what?

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:01 am 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
she looks woman enough for me....

Coming from you, that doesn't say much

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:49 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
she looks woman enough for me....

Coming from you, that doesn't say much


meh, it is what it is. judge away from your pedestal.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:13 am 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
she looks woman enough for me....

Coming from you, that doesn't say much


meh, it is what it is. judge away from your pedestal.

It's the pedestal staying above the "used to have a weiner" crowd. Freaks me out.

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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:29 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
she looks woman enough for me....

Coming from you, that doesn't say much


meh, it is what it is. judge away from your pedestal.

It's the pedestal staying above the "used to have a weiner" crowd. Freaks me out.


but its gone! gone i say!

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