Squanto wrote:
BlueandYellow wrote:
that seems pretty hard to do, considering the patterns of his cuts
I AM an expert. I watch Law and Order.
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| Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7105 |
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| Author: | daz28 [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: If Martin was actually getting the better of the fight (possibly struck first?) and Zimmerman was in a vulnerable position and in fear of serious injury/death, not only would the shooting be justified, but the "stand your ground" law doesn't even come into play. Not sure I'm buying any of this. It doesn't matter if Zimmerman believed he was going to die or not, what matters is if the person who decides if it's justified or not, AND then the jury decides if his belief of death was reasonable. Under your stance, we'd have the wild west. As soon as you hit the ground, and take the first punch or kick, that's when you shoot, and claim justifiable homicide. Don't think so. There is no, "i thought he was gonna kill me", and then a "oh, ok, have a nice day". You had better have a BELIEVABLE story. Just getting scared while you're getting your ass kicked ain't enough. In your scenario, the guy better have a weapon, and or be beating you VERY severely. NEITHER of those things were happening here. If you were just trying to tutor us on self-defense in general(why I'd have no idea), then ok. Bottom line is no(as dp already stated) one on this board is very knowledgeable of Florida law at a prosecutorial level. First off, I've heard that there is no opportunity for a grand jury in this. I could be mistaken, but in FLA only 1st degree murder affords a grand jury. Also, I believe that stand your ground does not apply if you initiate the confrontation. So if Zimmerman started it, and started to lose, and feared death(which I find comical), he wouldn't be able to plead SYG(although in that instance, he still has a self-defense plea). I could be wrong on some/all of this, but from the tidbits I've heard, this is what I've made of it. The prosecutor in Squanto's link kind of backs up what I was saying: "LASER: And I think, ultimately, that's the type of issue that's going to come to trial in this case: Who had the right to use force, what degree of force, what level of force and under what circumstances - in other words, what happened in that last minute that I guess all of us have been left out of the news accounts?" This was in response to a question about if a burglar can use force against the homeowner. IOW, the burglar had better damn sure be convincing that he thought the homeowner was going to kill him. He can't just shoot the homeowner the minute he starts getting his ass kicked, and say, "hey, I believed he was going to kill me", and think he'll walk. The assaulted person's belief has to also be the belief of the justice system as well. |
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| Author: | Sabresfansince1980 [ Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Well, I left out the word "reasonable". If Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of serious injury/death, than the shooting would be justified. Obviously an unreasonable fear can't justify killing somebody, but many people's version of "reasonable" doesn't match up with commonly accepted versions from common/case law. There really is no need for a grand jury anyway, it's pretty much a formality that rarely has a useful purpose. FWIW, I've studied both NY and FL state law, along with practical experience in NC state law. There really isn't much difference in state laws when it comes to higher level felonies, aside from some procedural aspects. The same legal concepts apply, and it doesn't take prosecutorial level experience to understand them. I read most of that link, and what those lawyers said is very accurate. At one point one of them mispoke about an aggresor giving up the right to self-defense and I was shaking my head as I read it, but then the other guy clarified the point. Parts of the discussion kind of repeat or back-up my first post, and hopefully posters here that read that link will understand much of the legalese, and therefore this case a little better. Too much of what has been debated in media and public, including the "stand your ground" law, is probably not central to the case. |
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| Author: | sabresindc [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
I have a lot of issues with this case. First I hate how this was thrusted into the lime light under the "racial" tag. This was done by the lawyer trayvon family hired. There is nothing that has been put out by the media that show that any of this was racially motivated. After reviewing florida statute, 2nd maybe hard to prove. it will be interesting to see what will happen if this makes it to a trial. I would expect manslaughter from a jury, not 2nd. |
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| Author: | BlueandYellow [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic-ph ... ories.html |
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| Author: | Sabresfansince1980 [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
http://news.yahoo.com/experts-zimmerman ... 05753.html "Investigator Dale Gilbreath testified that he does not know whether Martin or Zimmerman threw the first punch and that there is no evidence to disprove Zimmerman's contention he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin. The affidavit says "Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued." I believe this section of the affidavit comes from the link that Squanto posted earlier. Pretty shoddy work by the investigator to word it that way if he doesn't know. It's easy enough to simply type, "...a confrontation occurred and...", rather than open himself up to look biased and compromise the case. |
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| Author: | BlueandYellow [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
At least it proves he didn't just shoot him and a fight ensued. As far as I'm concerned Trayvon was in the right, the guy was following him. |
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| Author: | NYIntensity [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
BlueandYellow wrote: At least it proves he didn't just shoot him and a fight ensued. As far as I'm concerned Trayvon was in the right, the guy was following him. Is this your professional (Detective) opinion, after evaluating all evidence and interviewing all interested parties. |
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| Author: | BlueandYellow [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
NYIntensity wrote: BlueandYellow wrote: At least it proves he didn't just shoot him and a fight ensued. As far as I'm concerned Trayvon was in the right, the guy was following him. Is this your professional (Detective) opinion, after evaluating all evidence and interviewing all interested parties. Having a split open head seems pretty clear cut...? |
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| Author: | NYIntensity [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Nothing says who started the fight. If I punch you and leave your jaw sore, and you punch me and break my nose, it doesn't mean that you started the fight. Edit: I accidentally a word. |
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| Author: | Squanto [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
BlueandYellow wrote: NYIntensity wrote: BlueandYellow wrote: At least it proves he didn't just shoot him and a fight ensued. As far as I'm concerned Trayvon was in the right, the guy was following him. Is this your professional (Detective) opinion, after evaluating all evidence and interviewing all interested parties. Having a split open head seems pretty clear cut...? Maybe he fired his gun, and stepped back from the recoil, tripping and falling backwards, hitting his head. You don't know. |
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| Author: | BlueandYellow [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
that seems pretty hard to do, considering the patterns of his cuts |
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| Author: | Squanto [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
BlueandYellow wrote: that seems pretty hard to do, considering the patterns of his cuts |
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| Author: | sabresindc [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/experts-zimmerman-attorney-made-smart-move-072305753.html "Investigator Dale Gilbreath testified that he does not know whether Martin or Zimmerman threw the first punch and that there is no evidence to disprove Zimmerman's contention he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin. The affidavit says "Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued." I believe this section of the affidavit comes from the link that Squanto posted earlier. Pretty shoddy work by the investigator to word it that way if he doesn't know. It's easy enough to simply type, "...a confrontation occurred and...", rather than open himself up to look biased and compromise the case. that opens up the investigator to scrutiny along with the arrest affidavits validity. IMO it looks like they falsified the affidavit to justify second degree murder indictment. Not saying they did, but the wording was absolutely horrendous. That alone could sway the jury's decision..... |
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| Author: | BlueandYellow [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Squanto wrote: BlueandYellow wrote: that seems pretty hard to do, considering the patterns of his cuts I AM an expert. I watch Law and Order.
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| Author: | Sabresfansince1980 [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
sabresindc wrote: that opens up the investigator to scrutiny along with the arrest affidavits validity. IMO it looks like they falsified the affidavit to justify second degree murder indictment. Not saying they did, but the wording was absolutely horrendous. That alone could sway the jury's decision..... It certainly allows the defense attorney to easily paint the picture of his client being railroaded due to political pressure. That investigator is simply walking right into that wall, head first. |
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| Author: | sabresindc [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zimmerman in custody: 2nd degree murder |
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: sabresindc wrote: that opens up the investigator to scrutiny along with the arrest affidavits validity. IMO it looks like they falsified the affidavit to justify second degree murder indictment. Not saying they did, but the wording was absolutely horrendous. That alone could sway the jury's decision..... It certainly allows the defense attorney to easily paint the picture of his client being railroaded due to political pressure. That investigator is simply walking right into that wall, head first. You're not kidding. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Wonder if this will be as much of a spectacle as the Casey Anthony case was 
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