Well, what ETC posted did, in fact, cite actual sections of the bill being considered...but your response was to rebuke the woman delivering the message, not address the actual concerns raised from the bill itself.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I posted links to independent analysis showing that every single one of McCaughey's claims about provisions in the health care bill have been proven to be incorrect. Her statements about care rationing and withholding of payment for medically valid services have also been analyzed and rebuked on multiple occasions.

I would sat that addresses the concerns about the bill quite directly.

EDIT: You know what, don't even bother carrying on with my points in this thread. I'd rather keep my politics to myself from now on.

I'll go back into the hockey forums to have people keep trying to convince me that hits to the head should sometimes be ok.

I think your use of the term "independent" is scrumptious. Of course The Party is independent, and their Ministry of Truth has fact checked, so we should no longer speak of this unperson anymore.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Actually, all those links you posted don't refute the fact that Medicare will provide for end of life counseling or punish doctors for providing what the government deems "too much" health care for seniors.

It will.
No one is saying it doesn't. Right? It's there in not-so-plain English.

The arguments you provided simply refute her assertion that these programs will be mandatory.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Yeah, once the Truth Ministry has successfully discredited all dissenters, The Party can claim to enjoy a true mandate. All those links were to Party approved "Fact Checkers", therefore their findings naturally ratified The Party position. Once a reporter has been rendered invalid by The Party it's as if they no longer exist.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

From my own experience, going through the process of dying takes a major toll on you mentally, emotionally, and physically. I've been to every hospital in Buffalo and I can say each only treated my physical symptoms(none of them correctly) and nothing more. Here's the problem: you don't just take a hit physically when your dying. It wears on your mind and emotions just as much/if not more than you physically. I won't lie. I hate our current medical system. It's almost killed me 3 times in the span of 2 years. All stemming from our current greatest medical system. So I really don't care to keep the status quo. That's not a mandate for do whatever the fuck you want. I want improvements not set backs.

Which leads me to this question: have anyone of you ever done any end of life counseling or even know what it is? Most people have no clue what end of life counselors do. Yet they have no problem assuming the goal is to get you to end your life. It's not. I'm not an expert and much of what I know is based on my experience working for a month at Lincoln Hospital in NYC.

After almost dying 3 times in college I went to Lincoln to work with their end of life consoling program to see how addressing the emotional and mental needs of the patient and their family improved the overall quality of healthcare provided at that hospital. I am very glad I had the opportunity to do it and it had left me wishing Buffalo had these programs at their hospitals. I got to see and experience the value of it first hand.

Just to give you an idea of what I got to work with, Lincoln in one of the poorest congressional districts in the country and when I was there, the hospital had the third most active emergency room in the country. It wasn't a pretty scene any given day of the week. So don't think I was at some 5 star hospital where everyone could afford coverage. We dealt with people who couldn't afford life saving treatments. The scary part being some of those people reminded me of my family. Similar backgrounds, values, income, and they were going to die because their insurance provider said "sorry but it's your time to go. We ain't covering that bill."

Most hospitals do not have end of life counseling programs like Lincoln's. Many hospitals have a lot of pamphlets for doctors who are emotionally not there to hand to you though when you are facing death or have experienced the death of a loved one. Honestly, I don't see how having end of life counseling is a bad thing. Yes you can fear the unknown and say that under the government they'll instruct people to die. I just don't buy into that. Why? Because private insurers tell people all the time they are going to die and no one really seems to give a shit. If the government were in the healthcare business then they would get to too. My point which probably got lost is end of life counseling doesn't mean they strong arm you into ending your life. They don't make that decision for you. The entity providing your health insurance really makes it.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Also McCaughey isn't really someone you want to be standing behind on this issue of healthcare reform. Her outrageous and wrong claims are well documented. Even the Maple Leafs can win a game but their record speaks for itself. I suppose she cried wolf one too many times for many people to take her seriously.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

DBTG what you say all makes sense and that's all well and good.
Why would people "fear the unknown" and stipulate that the government would actually use end of life counseling to encourage people to die?
Because they already do.
http://www.examiner.com/x-17176-Orlando ... nd-to-life

So...yeah...

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Sorry to hear you were dying...are you still dying?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Oh and the Dartmouth study is pretty hilarious. I like how McCaughey mocks it even though the authors of the study say the same thing she is saying: don't cut funding. The authors of the study point out that more money doesn't equal better care. They argue the government needs to spend it's money better. They are saying you should improve the care. They even admit that cutting spending would be hurtful. The states that overspend and dole out poor healthcare would most likely continue to do that because of the bad policies that are in place and not the lack of funding.

Which is why it's still hard to take her seriously. She is attacking a study that says essentially everything she says. Slap Obama's name onto it and now you're a hero for the little guy.

Obama needs to present his healthcare reform as fiscally manageable. I like many do not believe it can be with the Bill of One in the Senate. Then again I don't believe Medicare is fiscally manageable. Old people hate me either way. I walk on their lawn and play my music loud.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Translation: Obama needs to lie.

Look at Massachusets...Look at Maine....look at the numbers coming from the CBO (What is it, $1trillion over 10 years now?)

What Ice said earlier is spot on: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
We simply cannot do this deficit neutral and get better coverage to everyone, and make doctors happy and shit rainbows and unicorns.

Ok, I actually have no interest in shitting a unicorn, I'd need medical attention after that.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Technically no. Although I still have an abscess in my chest that seems to grow and shrink on it's own. It's benign but every once in a while I'll twist my upper body in a way that the damn thing drops me to my knees in pain.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Wow, sorry to hear that. You're too young for this shit.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I see where you're coming from but that article is exactly what I'm attacking too. Handing out pamphlets to people about end of life. That's not really end of life counseling. If you sent your kid to see a guidance counselor and he came back with just a pamphlet and never really talked to someone you wouldn't say he received guidance. At least I wouldn't.

Also Lincoln hospital is a public hospital and their program for end of life counseling is funded by the government. I actually think Bush was the one who got the funding in place for programs like Lincoln's. Don't quote me though. I just remember the Republicans had a major push in 2003 in their Medicare bill for end of life counseling.

Also end of life counseling doesn't enter the area that article talks about. The all patients thing in the article wouldn't fall under the end of life counseling. Also asking the question "what makes your life worth living" is a fair question. It's a question that needs to be asked. For many conditions there are severe drawbacks. It differs from everyone. I saw an old lady (late 60s) forgo chemo because she'd rather die than lose her hair. She died a very gruesome death. The tumors were so large then split open her skin. To her a life with no hair wasn't worth living. I disagree with her decision but it wasn't my life to live. It was her life and we didn't imped her decision. Hell if I had pancreatic cancer I can't say I'd immediately opt for chemo or radiation treatment. I might just choose to live out the rest of my days with the most quality possible.

That pamphlet is unofficial for a good reason. If it were official it wouldn't be passed around. I'm not a huge proponent for assisted suicide. I get the arguments for it, I just don't really agree with it. Last time I checked assisted suicide is illegal. So I don't buy into the official direction for end of life care being tantamount to assisted suicide. Which that article hints at. I've seen pamphlets like those in hospitals though. I can't tell you how cowardly I think it is because to me things like those are preying on individuals who are in a fragile state of mind.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

So, what makes you so sure what's going on in the V.A. and what they do in the U.K. would never happen under a national health insurance plan?

It makes complete sense. Something like 80% of all medical expenses are incurred in the last 2 years of life.
Old, sick people would be the #1 net drain on any public health system (and is why Medicare is going bankrupt).

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Hold my beer and watch this...

The lying part is not something I'll disagree with. Even John Stewart has called Obama out on that. I know, I was shocked too. Some will say he's just viewing it in the best possible light but I tend to look at all politicians as liars when they try to use that excuse.

The way things are shacking out it's not affordable to have a public option. The government doesn't have the money to accomplish what it is setting out to do. Meaning we'll borrow more money, create a debt so great we'll break the dollar, and weaken a lot of other unsustainable government programs at the same time. I do however think things like end of life counseling and other legitimate things that can improve the overall quality of healthcare in this country are being presented unfairly.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

End of life counseling and what you are talking about cover different scopes. What end of life counseling encompasses is included in what you are talking about in the VA thing but the reverse is not true. Honestly XC what you're afraid of is already going on. Playing devil's advocate here, adding a government backed plan would just be adding a different poison for people to pick.

I've said it before on the old boards, I don't support a public option because it's not affordable. It is a lie. It would promise something it can't deliver on. I do however, see legitimate things get dragged through the mug or propped up as solutions when neither is deserving.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Ok, that's fair, but did you read what they do in the UK?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... e-NHS.html

That's not counseling. It's identifying people that are close to death and killing them.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Fear, fear, Fear.

If a public option passes, that's it. A bureaucrat will decide exactly when, where, and with whom you get healthcare. All medical supplies will be rationed on a yearly basis. If you go through your year's supply, tough shit, trade with your neighbors or something. Actuaries will decide the precise moment treating you will become too expensive, and you will be killed right then and there. Certain conditions will be deemed worthy of treatment, other conditions will be allowed to run their course. There will be approximately 4 hours of red tape that each patient will have to go through for every 1 hour of care.

Also Obama and Harry Reid will drain all the blood of any citizens who refuse to get medical insurance, and use that blood to preserve the lives of welfare mothers.

I'll admit... I laughed.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.