I've had my paxil...I'm better now. This is a very provocative topic and I get a little worked up...

But how could the military keep up on this? There are millions of men and women in the military and it only takes one loon to cause a major catastophe. To keep up on it, is to risk racial profiling, and that pisses off everyone, but to go easy on potential crazies just because you're afraid of racial profiling is to allow radicals to grow like mold from within.

What can you do?

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. So, to summarize, you are suggesting Islamic extremism is one of the many dangerous ideologies that need to be tightly monitored, but certainly not the only one? That anyone who belongs to, or advocates for, anti-American organizations or ideologies should be rooted out of the military?

My apologies for being so specific, but I'm just trying to get your views pinned down as accurately as possible.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Excellent question. I believe the military should absolutely be profiling... religious, racial, and anything else that could help keep America safe. When you sign up for military service you effectively give up your individual rights and become property of the US government.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Sort of.

I think that the country needs a culture change when it comes to Islam. The term 'Muslim' has gone from describing someone who is of the Islamic faith to a derogatory term describing someone who hates our country. I think that there are plenty of folks in the media (on the right and left) that perpetuate this stigma unfairly, and I find it sad.

Timothy McVeigh was an American citizen. Killed over 150 innocent people. I don't recall hearing stereotypes about Catholics being bandied about then. Religion doesn't seem to be a factor when discussing terrorism unless that religion happens to be Islam.

To be objective, yes, I am aware of the recent reports that there may be a strong religious tie to these shootings. If the facts prove that out, I have no problem with it being criticized. I just object to the assumption before the facts are to be had.

We talk about politics and say that the 'lunatic fringes' of the left and the right don't represent the true values of those groups. The same thing happens for our Christian religions. Any reasonable person would say that Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a fringe group that doesn't really represent the true values of the Morman faith. Yet, when it comes to Islam, the 'lunatic fringe' of radical clerics that preach hate are treated in the opposite manner. Their hate for the West is considered to be a universal tenet of the religion, whereas nothing could be further from the truth. Interpreting 'jihad' to mean 'anti-America' is a common refrain, yet couldn't be further from the truth.

How do you go about it then? I don't know. The events of 9/11 cemented this perverse 'understanding' of Islam into the core of American consciousness, and I think it will take some generations for this to work itself out. I'd like to see tolerance preached. I'd like to see people accept that being a Muslim doesn't mean they have a bomb strapped to their chest, and are just waiting for the sign from Allah to set it off. I'd like to see people accept that it's OK be a Christian, have your neighbor be a Muslim, and your friend a Buddhist.

Someday.

Squanto, you seem to believe very passionately that Americans are badly misunderstanding Islam, and that in reality it's a very peaceful religion that's just been corrupted by a few bad apples. Did you study Islam at some point in life before coming to this conclusion, or is it just more of a general deduction on your part?

Also, I've noticed many of our members here in the past lashing out angrily at Christians, particularly evangelical Christians. Do you believe that Christianity, like Islam, is also a religion of peace that's just misunderstood and demonized out of ignorance?

Thanks!

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

To join into this conversation, I think that extremist Christians are just as at fault for the views fostered upon the larger umbrella of Christianity as the extremist Muslims who have cast a shadow on the larger, mainstream sect of Islam.

When a Muslim gets a rifle, spouts some fringe Islamic views and shoots some people up, it's called terrorism and people get racist as fuck.

When a white boy gets a rifle, spouts some fringe Christian views and shoots some people up, it's called a hate crime and people look at his past to see "where he was done wrong."

Something isn't right here...

Also, ETC, as someone who has had a very close interaction with quite a few denominations of Evangelical Christianity (especially Pentacostals and various Baptist strains), I can say without bias or prejudice in my heart that Evangelical Christianity as a majority is incredibly discriminatory, closed-minded, and condescending. To a great many that I have met, it is their public opinion that if you don't take the Bible 100% literally and preach it like your next breath depends on it, you're fucked for eternity. The rest of them, it's just hinted at that that is what they believe. Any sort of deviation from the J.Crew look and it's the big EFF YOU.

I may not like the rampant hypocrisy of Catholicism one bit, but I loathe and despise Evangelical Christianity as a whole. And this is coming from close, personal, years-long experience.

Also, Tom, I totally see where you're coming from in terms of scanning the ranks of enlistees for any signs of extremism of any sort. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the wars being waged right now, if someone wants to join up and get shipped out, he needs to be sure in his heart and mind that he is 100% behind that big waving flag he sees raised at dawn every morning, without any chance of doubt.

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mechaphil

From what I've heard, and I'm forming my opinion based on these stories, I voted for #1.

Attempted to make contact with Al Qaeda.
Said he admired suicide bombers.
Said he was a Muslim first and an American second (I would actually make a similar statement regarding Christianity, but it goes to show his commitment to his faith).
Listed Palestinian as his nationality at his mosque despite being born and raised in this country.
Attended a controversial mosque that at least one of the 9/11 hijackers did.
Yelled "God is Great" as he gunned down the soldiers around him.

In my opinion, he may have been pushed over the edge by being forced to ship out to a theater to fight people of his own faith, but he obviously had some extreme views to begin with. I think he should be tried for treason (he is an American citizen and soldier) and executed.

As for what to do about things like this in the future, I think a cultural shift is necessary, but unlike Squanto, I think it needs to take place in the military. Apparently some of these facts were already known to his superiors, his fellow soldiers and even the FBI. What led them all to keep hush about this obvious extremist in the military ranks? I think political correctness has something to do with it. People don't want to be seen as Islamophobes.

I think anyone in the military who expresses views so far out of the norm, particularly in regards to a current enemy of the nation, should bear very careful watching.

And I think Islam is not a violent religion. But there are groups within Islam which are the extreme fringe. You may not have millions willing to blow themselves up to kill infidels, but you can see that millions will cheer when such things take place. I don't think the extreme fringe of Islam is as small as many make it out to be, and if the moderate Muslims are too afraid to speak and act out against these extremists, then they've basically had their religion hijacked (pardon the phrasing).

If it was just a matter of someone who seemed to go crazy for no apparent reason and shot the place up, I don't think there's much you can do about that. But I think this was idealogically driven. There is a war against radical Islam, so to pretend that Islam itself has nothing to do with it, is naive and dangerous. Let's not turn a blind eye to who our actual enemy is and what he is capable of.

Ham

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Do you believe yet?

Phil, would it not be bigoted if one said the same things about Islam that you are saying about Christianity? Also, do you feel that your open hatred and loathing for millions of Christians and their ideology is bigotry, and if not why? I am just trying to reconcile how you are compartmentalizing Christianity as a religion of closed-minded intolerance and hate, while simultaneously feeling compelled to rage against those who are openly critical of Islam for similar reasons.

I'm sincerely just trying to understand you, Phil. No offense intended with these questions, but I see a disconnect that I just don't quite get.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I understand what you're inferring from my post, but I don't hate on all of Christianity due to my really shitty experiences with born-agains. I hate on all of Christianity due to my experiences with various strands of Christianity. I don't hate on Christians, however, unless I have their faith forced upon me by them.

I get along with Eileen just fine, and she and I are on opposite ends of the religious spectrum. How does it work? Because we don't share our religious views with each other, knowing it would only lead to bullshit. It's the same way with every religion - Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, pagans, Taoists, aborigine animists...just keep your views to yourself and I'll keep mine to myself. With the exception of the Eastern philosophies and big-ass umbrella of paganism, I have a lot of beef with a lot of religions, but I can be just peaceful with the people of those religions just fine. I guess I really do come off as bigoted against folks of religion, which is an overwhelmingly majority of the people of Earth, but I only really hate the religion itself and not the people.

It also comes down to execution of a religion that gets me so up in arms. The bottom-line teachings of every religion always come back to "love one another", but I think every religion gets it wrong. So many rules mucking it up, with so many interpretations by heads of worship further mucking it up.

...it occurred to me I kind of avoided your question in your first paragraph, so here's my response: I won't rage on people who have similar views on Islam as long as those views are directed at the right sects and come from personal experiences such as mine has. Like I said above, I have no issue with the fundamental message of every religion - love one another - just the execution.

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mechaphil

Also, this is a good talk. I like this talk. I hope it stays good.

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mechaphil

I guess if a shooting occurs around an abortion clinic and the shooter is Caucasian, has a European name, and is a Christian it's fair to conclude without any other facts than those that the motivation was religious terrorism in the name of Christianity. You cannot consider that it may be an individual who has a distorted view/understanding of the world and religion. No. Simply you must conclude that the religion has driven the individual to commit murder. That's the logic I vehemently disagree with that is employed here with the Fort Hood case.

Before any real concrete facts were released people already concluded that the shooting occurred because he was a Muslim terrorist based solely on his name, ethnicity, and religion. That is bullshit.

Islam is misunderstood in the US. MUCH like Christianity it calls for violence when it is deemed necessary. Look to Ecclesiastes to talk about there being a time for war. Violence in the light of justice is still violent. There is no one way of getting around that. However, groups or individuals that distort a religion to justify senseless violent behavior and now all of a sudden you have a religion being branded as militant and intolerant.

If you are a Christian and you are upset about how Evangelical Christians get a bad rep then I would hope you'd see how the same thing occurs with Islam as a whole in this country. In each case it isn't right.

Also just simplifying the whole situation as he's an Islamic terrorist that's the end of it is a recipe for a repeat. Understanding why he did this is extremely important for prevention. His personal history is out there right now. It's clear that Islamophobia has a profound impact on his life. I really think Islamophobia is being glossed over here. If it's ignored and allowed to continue then we should all expect more shootings like the Fort Hood one.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Phil - Can you believe it? I agree with you 100% on this. Hypocrisy kept me away from church for a long time, but I finally found a home hangin with the Episcopalians. People will talk in church, "How can we get more people into church? Why are there no younger families coming to church anymore?" Between the creepy preists molesting little boys and the little old ladies looking down their nose at anyone with so much as a tattoo...whaddya think is going to happen? People feel uncomfortable in chruch because its hard to be yourself in most and not feel looked down on or feeling like you're being yourself. I went to a non-denominational church for a time...it was like the lonely hearts club and eveyrone was so FAKE!

Alas, I'm getting too much into my opinion here, but I just wanted to tell you that, as a mother of an altar boy that goes to church every single Sunday and prays her face off for everyone she knows, +1. I don't know how it came to this, but I understand when someone turns away from the church. Bad experiences can be a real turn-off to many. My husband refuses to go to church because of his experiences.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

Thanks, Phil. I think it would probably be more consistent with your philosophy of respecting those who do not impose their beliefs upon others if you were more reciprocal. I am not Christian, so like you I obviously don't hold beliefs in Christian doctrines, but I am also respectful enough not to attack them for just for having different ideology.

I think your reluctance to criticize Islam, even after a deadly shooting where the gunman openly screams he's doing it in the name of Islam, and exuberance for criticizing Christianity without provocation is something that deserves some further introspection, Phil.

Of course, I am far, far from perfect, so feel free to point that out, too!

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I have a rather lengthy response, but I need to run, have a game tonight at 6p.

Will pick it up again afterward.

Thanks to everyone for keeping this civil too.

I'm on my phone, so I'll be brief, but I have a lot of problems with your post just now, ETC. I'll be on my laptop in a few minutes.

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mechaphil

Sorry, Phil. I probably should have kept out some of what I wrote. I'll go ahead and do some editing.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Role reversal. ETC it seems like you do the same thing you are criticizing Phil for. The roles are just reversed.

What is there to criticize about Islam after the Fort Hood shooting that you or anyone else are unable to criticize about Christianity after a Christian shoots someone in cold blood? Islam isn't the problem here, nor are Evangelical Christians. Like I said before, it's not the religion driving a person to act this way. To take that position is to ignore all of the other factors that are involved.

If you give a person a creed that doesn't determine who they are. What drove this guy to do what he did goes beyond just Islam. Simplifying it to just that doesn't answer anything.

Like I said before, violence can be found in most of the world's religions. Violence in light of justice is still violent. The Quran and Bible both discuss where violence's place fits in.

Anyone know where this quote comes from: Not the Bible but the Quran.

At the end of the day religion is what you do with it. You can use it as a tool to help people, you can use it to make you money, or you can use it further an agenda etc etc... None of this excuses the shooter at Fort Hood. However, to simply suggest that Islam is to blame is short sighted.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

Nothing at all, DBTG. If he had a NT in his hand and screamed Jesus is Lord while blowing everyone away I would call it an act of Christian Extremist Terror.

Let me ask you, though, what would you do in the wake of this attack to try and prevent it from happening again if you were king? Thanks!

BTW, roles reverse all the time...I used to be the boss of my house, than I got married and that all changed.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Well, ETC, you didn't edit out what I have a problem with. I have no problem lashing out at the militant, violent sects of Islam just like I have no problem lashing out at the militant, intolerant sects of Christianity. I invite you to find any truly acid-tongued, uninvited attacks on Christianity or Christians that I may have perpetrated in the past. I'm fairly confident that you will find none (if you do, oops, my bad). Just as you will not find me blindly defending Islam uninvited. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of religion.

The closest I may have come to an attack was during the debate on evolution with someone I've frequently clashed with in the past, Skyline. But you know what, we were actually having a civil conversation that consisted of just stating our beliefs, seeing as we both knew that we wouldn't change the other's mind. It was the other participants in that now-locked thread that caused it to be shut down with intolerant anti-Christian rantings.

It may have been on Facebook or here on the Junkie, but I have no problem condemning a violent sect of a religion which preaches peace and anyone who follows it. I had said as much during the conversation I cannot place (I think it might have been on one of my friend's statuses, actually, but I cannot be sure), when I said that I felt at the time that a combination of psychological influences and anxiety caused him to crack like that, but if he turned out to be a terrorist, then fuck 'im and fry 'im. And I would have said the same if he were a Kansas boy.

But I can say one thing I do not do is attack people for having a different ideology just because they have it. I know, off the top of my head, three atheists, two pagans, three born agains, a Jew, a Messianic Jew, a great number of Catholics, a great number Protestants, a Muslim, and many more agnostics or nonreligious persons and I do not attack them purely for believing in something I do not.

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mechaphil

This is America, go back to England to find your king!

See this is why I'm saying it's a role reversal: you seem to strongly believe that criticizing Islam for this is fair game. Yet you also gripe about people in the past blasting Evangelical Christians for shootings. I do not recall you showing the same outrage at Christianity as you have with Islam from other posts.

The shooter at Fort Hood said "God is great" and opened fire. So people then brand the mass murder as a Islamic act. Saying "God is great" before committing mass murder makes it no more religious than when a Christian screams "Jesus is Lord" and kills people. Those things don't make you a Christian or a Muslim. Nor does it make your act anything other than cold blooded murder.

What is Timothy McVeigh labeled as again? He certainly isn't labeled a Christian terrorists even though he was in close contact with the Christian Identity Movement. What McVeigh is and what he did aren't labeled as being Christian acts of terrorism. Double standard much?

As for the last part, what would I do, I've said it before. Stamp out this Islamaphobia and really all bigotry and intolerance towards people that are different from you. You can monitor people all you want. That's a given. However, it looks like they were monitoring this guy and we all know how that turned out. I'm all for taking a proactive stance. I just don't believe pouring a ton of money into watching people is going to stop it. A good question is why would he do this? Simply saying "oh it's because he's Muslim" isn't even close to being satisfactory.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.