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Is there seperation of church and state?
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Author:  slesh [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Is there seperation of church and state?
From the U.S. Federal Laws themselves, here is your right to celebrate Christmas. (a christian holiday)
It is the only know religous holiday formally recognized by federal law.

http://law.justia.com/us/codes/title5/5usc6103.html

[The United States of America, founded on christianity, should always maintain christianity to keep the country on the right track. Just an opinion.]

Due to some confusion from a responder to this post this disclaimer is inserted to avoid further confusion, the above statement in bold and brackets is a cynical start to the conversation :D .
Whats yours?
Author:  YankeeInRaleigh [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
Just an opinion, whats yours?


That i'm super glad you're not in charge of shit.
Author:  slesh [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
slesh wrote:
Just an opinion, whats yours?


That i'm super glad you're not in charge of shit.

Attacks on opinions for self gratification always indicates an insecurity issue.
I didn't write the law, nor was I even alive when it was voted on by the legislative branch then signed into law by the executive branch.

How about this: Hate the game, not the player.
Author:  Sk8haggard9 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
The world would be a better place, now and throughout history, without any religion. The fact that people need to create a fake divinity to justify them a meaningful life is showing weakness and insecurity. Now that it has been instilled in the culture for so long, people have basically been continually brainwashed. The world is going to be in some deep shit if they keep allowing religion to govern everything.

If you don't believe in magic why would you believe in religion?
If you don't believe in scientology why would you believe in christianity? Started as the same thing... a story.

I just find it difficult to understand why educated people would believe in anything that cannot be proved scientifically at this point.

Whatever keeps you going though I guess.
Author:  YankeeInRaleigh [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
slesh wrote:
Just an opinion, whats yours?


That i'm super glad you're not in charge of shit.

Attacks on opinions for self gratification always indicates an insecurity issue.
I didn't write the law, nor was I even alive when it was voted on by the legislative branch then signed into law by the executive branch.

How about this: Hate the game, not the player.


I could give a shit about that law, I quite literally am super happy that you have no ability to enforce your superstitious views upon the populace of this country.

Not to mention that...dude, you're such an f-ing hypocrite. You'd like us to kill every man woman and child in pakistan, but think the US would be a better place if we all lived with christian values? I guess Jesus was a big fan of genocide then? Odd, I dont remember that verse.
Author:  slesh [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
slesh wrote:
YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
slesh wrote:
Just an opinion, whats yours?


That i'm super glad you're not in charge of shit.

Attacks on opinions for self gratification always indicates an insecurity issue.
I didn't write the law, nor was I even alive when it was voted on by the legislative branch then signed into law by the executive branch.

How about this: Hate the game, not the player.


I could give a shit about that law, I quite literally am super happy that you have no ability to enforce your superstitious views upon the populace of this country.

Not to mention that...dude, you're such an f-ing hypocrite. You'd like us to kill every man woman and child in pakistan, but think the US would be a better place if we all lived with christian values? I guess Jesus was a big fan of genocide then? Odd, I dont remember that verse.

Then I think you misunderstood my opinion, I wasn't supporting christianity, I was pointing out that the founders used christian beliefs to found the country and subsequently, future political bodies have supported this process by enacting laws to support them, in this case the only recognized religious holiday recognized by the federal government.
The cynical statement I made after posting the article was just that, cynical. The post isn't to debate religion, the post is to get different view points from people on whether or not this violates the protocols of the 1st amendment.
I hope this cleared it up for you.
Author:  Rutledge222 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
Sk8haggard9 wrote:
The world would be a better place, now and throughout history, without any religion. The fact that people need to create a fake divinity to justify them a meaningful life is showing weakness and insecurity. Now that it has been instilled in the culture for so long, people have basically been continually brainwashed. The world is going to be in some deep shit if they keep allowing religion to govern everything.

If you don't believe in magic why would you believe in religion?
If you don't believe in scientology why would you believe in christianity? Started as the same thing... a story.

I just find it difficult to understand why educated people would believe in anything that cannot be proved scientifically at this point.

Whatever keeps you going though I guess.


Would you agree that Christian values are good values? Treat others how you want to be treated, Forgiveness, Compassion? If so... then whats wrong with wanting a Country to have these same traits... obviously it wont happen... too many non-christians running this Country now... but whats wrong with having a good set of Morals?
Author:  Rutledge222 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
Then I think you misunderstood my opinion, I wasn't supporting christianity, I was pointing out that the founders used christian beliefs to found the country and subsequently, future political bodies have supported this process by enacting laws to support them, in this case the only recognized religious holiday recognized by the federal government.
The cynical statement I made after posting the article was just that, cynical. The post isn't to debate religion, the post is to get different view points from people on whether or not this violates the protocols of the 1st amendment.
I hope this cleared it up for you.



The country was founded on Christain beliefs yes, they based our Rights off of them, I see no problem with Christmas being recognized as a religious holiday because it technically is. The story of Christmas is about Jesus being born, not getting presents under a tree... the whole concept of the tree and presents and santa clause is a Pagen concept. Martin Luther changed that so the tree could represent Christianity. Now, when it comes to seperation of church and state... there is the main problem... Just because the Government recognizes it as a Religious Holiday doesnt mean that everyone in Government supports it as a Christian Holiday.

Now I think that the main point of the seperation means that Churches shouldnt be allowed to sway political opinions, and preach a certain way about either being Republican or Democrat.... they shouldnt, if they wanna be involved they should have to pay taxes. I am a Christian. And I think that the Church should stay out of it. Now when it comes to political leaders having a cerain religion I have absolutly no problem with that, they can believe what they wanna believe, They can have morals that affect certain major decisions (abortion for an example *not trying to start an abortion arguement, but if you would like to talk about it, please PM me, I wrote a paper on it :D ) Now if their decisions become drastic and over used, then there is an issue, but what are we honestly going to do about it? Make a law that says that in order to become President you cant have any kinda religious affiliate? No, the country was based on Christian beliefs, and the presidents respect that.

Idk thats just my two cents.
Author:  CriminallyVu1gar [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
From the U.S. Federal Laws themselves, here is your right to celebrate Christmas. (a christian holiday)
It is the only know religous holiday formally recognized by federal law.

http://law.justia.com/us/codes/title5/5usc6103.html

[The United States of America, founded on christianity, should always maintain christianity to keep the country on the right track. Just an opinion.]

Due to some confusion from a responder to this post this disclaimer is inserted to avoid further confusion, the above statement in bold and brackets is a cynical start to the conversation :D .
Whats yours?


I think your statement makes little sense. What is maintaining Christianity? I think you mean maintain Christian values, which is an entirely different thing.

I would argue that while Christianity was a moral basis for the laws under which the country was created, that the laws of the US should transcend Christian "morality" and values.
Author:  Squanto [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
the above statement in bold and brackets is a cynical start to the conversation :D .


Just a friendly tip.

Starting serious discussions with cynical comments that may not be taken in the correct manner isn't usually the best of ideas.
Author:  nnyfan [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
This thread is very sad...
Author:  Squanto [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
slesh wrote:
[The United States of America, founded on christianity, should always maintain christianity to keep the country on the right track. Just an opinion.]


This in and of itself violates the principle of the First Amendment.

The government is not allowed to:
- Start or define a national religion
- Prefer one religion over another in any manner

To say that the US should 'maintain Christianity' is contrary to the establishment clauses of the First Amendment.
Author:  SABRESAllTheWay [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
Squanto wrote:
slesh wrote:
[The United States of America, founded on christianity, should always maintain christianity to keep the country on the right track. Just an opinion.]


This in and of itself violates the principle of the First Amendment.

The government is not allowed to:
- Start or define a national religion
- Prefer one religion over another in any manner

To say that the US should 'maintain Christianity' is contrary to the establishment clauses of the First Amendment.

This is why I cringe everytime I hear a president say "god bless america"... they break the first ammendment EVERY TIME!
Author:  Squanto [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
SABRESAllTheWay wrote:
This is why I cringe everytime I hear a president say "god bless america"... they break the first ammendment EVERY TIME!


Not really.

The term 'God' is a simple term really. It only means supreme being. It doesn't mean Christianity's supreme being, Islam's supreme being, Hinduism's supreme being, etc.

Exercising your religious beliefs is also protected by the First Amendment. Some have argued that a government employee that says 'God bless' is implicitly the government promoting Christianity, but that's not true.

The government cannot make LAWS forcing you to practice a specific religion, and cannot make LAWS preventing you from practicing your chosen religion.

It is neither illegal or inappropriate for a government official to make such a statement regarding their personal beliefs.
Author:  Sk8haggard9 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
The answer to the thread title is no.
Here are a few reasons why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt ... r_embedded
Author:  CriminallyVu1gar [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
nnyfan wrote:
This thread is very sad...


why?
Author:  Crosscheck [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
I don't recall the order from the Federal government for everyone to get their ass to a christian church and worship the sweet 6 lb 7oz baby Jesus.

It just so happens that businesses and government would shut down on Dec. 25th whether it was a Federal holiday or not.
Author:  Hammygoodness [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
There are two clauses in the First Amendment that are relevant.

The Establishment Clause states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." This prohibits the government from creating a national religion. It says nothing about recognizing a religious holiday. It says nothing about government figures referencing God or their own personal religious beliefs.

The Free Exercise Clause states "Congress shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]." This prohibits the government from interfering with the religious observance of its citizens.

The thing to keep in mind when reading the Constitution is that the framers mindset was one of fear of governmental power and control. The Constitution is written to restrict what the government can do to its people.

The term "separation of church and state" actually comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. In this letter, Jefferson was assuring the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists that the government could not interfere in their business.

So, in essence, the concept of the separation of church and state is actually a one-way street. Jefferson was saying the government must stay the fuck out of religion's business.

Ham
Author:  mechaphil [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
I don't know which state the uproar occurred in, but does anyone remember the statue of the Ten Commandments outside a southern courthouse brouhaha?
Author:  End The Curse [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there seperation of church and state?
If you combine church and state you'll fuck up both church and state.
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