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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:58 am 
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Under Obama and the Democratic Congress we have seen more tax cuts than almost anytime in our nation's history.

Obama's massive economic recovery package enacted last year included about $300 billion in tax cuts over 10 years. About $232 billion was in cuts for individuals, nearly all in the first two years.

The most generous was Obama's Making Work Pay credit, which gives individuals up to $400 and couples up to $800 for 2009 and 2010. The $1,000 child tax credit was expanded to more families, and the working poor can qualify for as much as $5,657 from the Earned Income Tax Credit.

So, those Tea Party folks (who are all in favor of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, in spite of wanting smaller government) must be pretty happy with the president, right?

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:10 am 
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Tax cuts are good, if they come from an American born, white Christian President.

They're not so good if they come from a Nigerian/Kenyan born Socialist Muslim President.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:31 am 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Obama's massive economic recovery package enacted last year included about $300 billion in tax cuts over 10 years. About $232 billion was in cuts for individuals, nearly all in the first two years.

one time stimulus...going away
Quote:
The most generous was Obama's Making Work Pay credit, which gives individuals up to $400 and couples up to $800 for 2009 and 2010. The $1,000 child tax credit was expanded to more families, and the working poor can qualify for as much as $5,657 from the Earned Income Tax Credit.

One time stimulus...going away
And WTF is this "most generous" language????
It's my damn money, not taking it isn't being "generous".
Hey, I'm not going to kick you in the balls isn't that generous of me?

Bush tax cuts are purposefully expiring.
Our new health care bill will surely be cost free as the money rains down from heaven.
If you invest any money (48% of Americans regardless of income), capitol gains taxes are going up.

According to the Joint committee on taxation:
Quote:
Taxpayers earning less than $200,000 a year will pay roughly $3.9 billion more in taxes—in 2019 alone—due to healthcare reform, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress's official scorekeeper.

The new law raises $15.2 billion over 10 years by limiting the medical expense deduction, a provision widely used by taxpayers who either have a serious illness or are older.

Taxpayers can currently deduct medical expenses in excess of 7.5 percent of their adjusted gross income. Starting in 2013, most taxpayers will only be able to deduct expenses greater than 10 percent of AGI. Older taxpayers are hit by this threshold increase in 2017.

Once the law is fully implemented in 2019, the JCT estimates the deduction limitation will affect 14.8 million taxpayers — 14.7 million of them will earn less than $200,000 a year. These taxpayers are single and joint filers, as well as heads of households.


Spin it any way you want Zilla, the crap being done right now isn't free.

How does that VAT look right about now?
Yeah...it's the only damn solution to our spending.

This year 47% of Americans paid NO federal income tax...that's up from 38% in 2007.
This path is not sustainable. Not according to me, according to the Fed and the Treasury.

But please, continue your ridiculous victory lap.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:34 am 
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Squanto wrote:
They're not so good if they come from a Nigerian/Kenyan born Socialist Muslim President.

You forgot black.
Since I don't like his policies I'm a racist.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:39 am 
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Well that one was just implied I thought. :p


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:42 am 
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Squanto wrote:
Well that one was just implied I thought. :p

ok, I didn't want it left out because I'm a raging racist ;)

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Melly317
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:09 am 
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I don't know nearly enough about politics to make an in any way educated response so all I will say is :clap: :clap:

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:34 pm 
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What would have been the response if taxes went up? Obama = bad
But, taxes went down. So, what is the response? Obama = bad

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
What would have been the response if taxes went up? Obama = bad
But, taxes went down. So, what is the response? Obama = bad

No, the way you spin it taxes went down (this is a fantasy)
The way I spin it taxes went up (because they actually did)

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with this guy.
We're now in a 2 class society, we should just admit it.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lets-Just ... 8&ccode=rd

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
What would have been the response if taxes went up? Obama = bad
But, taxes went down. So, what is the response? Obama = bad

No, the way you spin it taxes went down (this is a fantasy)
The way I spin it taxes went up (because they actually did)

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with this guy.
We're now in a 2 class society, we should just admit it.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lets-Just ... 8&ccode=rd

Your article argues that we should just stop taxing the bottom 60% in society. Maybe he has a point, since the United States has one of the highest levels of income inequality in the world, among high income countries. The top 300,000 Americans collectively enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million Americans. Per person, the top group receive 440 times as much as the average person in the bottom half earned.


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Hammygoodness
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
What would have been the response if taxes went up? Obama = bad
But, taxes went down. So, what is the response? Obama = bad

No, the way you spin it taxes went down (this is a fantasy)
The way I spin it taxes went up (because they actually did)

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with this guy.
We're now in a 2 class society, we should just admit it.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lets-Just ... 8&ccode=rd

Your article argues that we should just stop taxing the bottom 60% in society. Maybe he has a point, since the United States has one of the highest levels of income inequality in the world, among high income countries. The top 300,000 Americans collectively enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million Americans. Per person, the top group receive 440 times as much as the average person in the bottom half earned.



Is that really a knock on how poor those 150 million are, or a verification that in this country you can achieve a great amount of success. I don't begrudge someone their success and wealth, no matter how extreme that may be. If you can make $200 billion for yourself next year, good on ya.

Ham

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Hammygoodness wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
What would have been the response if taxes went up? Obama = bad
But, taxes went down. So, what is the response? Obama = bad

No, the way you spin it taxes went down (this is a fantasy)
The way I spin it taxes went up (because they actually did)

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with this guy.
We're now in a 2 class society, we should just admit it.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lets-Just ... 8&ccode=rd

Your article argues that we should just stop taxing the bottom 60% in society. Maybe he has a point, since the United States has one of the highest levels of income inequality in the world, among high income countries. The top 300,000 Americans collectively enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million Americans. Per person, the top group receive 440 times as much as the average person in the bottom half earned.



Is that really a knock on how poor those 150 million are, or a verification that in this country you can achieve a great amount of success. I don't begrudge someone their success and wealth, no matter how extreme that may be. If you can make $200 billion for yourself next year, good on ya.

Ham

Do you really think those people all made that wealth through hard work and initiative? Many of them are the same Wall Street tycoons and bankers whose bonuses ("earned" for running their companies into the ground) have angered so many people.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:50 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:

Do you really think those people all made that wealth through hard work and initiative?

All of the ultra high earners I know did.
There's not a lot of old money in Silicon Valley is there?

Have a problem with how much money bankers make?
Become a banker.

Have a problem with the profits of oil companies?
Buy oil stock.

This is America, participate.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:54 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:

Do you really think those people all made that wealth through hard work and initiative?

All of the ultra high earners I know did.
There's not a lot of old money in Silicon Valley is there?

Have a problem with how much money bankers make?
Become a banker.

Have a problem with the profits of oil companies?
Buy oil stock.

This is America, participate.

Participate, huh?

Here is a company from your neck of the woods, Cross. Ryland is a homebuilding company in California. Last year was a horrible year for homebuilders in general and for Ryland in particular. Ryland lost $9.33 a share, compared to a loss of $7.92 the year before. Gross profit margins slipped to 11.6% from 17%. Ryland's stock fell 34%. The company shed 723 employees, 36% of its work force.

So, when a company does so poorly everyone in the company takes a hit, right? Naw, not in America. Ryland chief R. Chad Dreier got an annual bonus of $2.5 million as part of a $10.9 million pay package. He also gained $6 million more from stock options.

Qwest Communications, a provider for High Speed Internet, had a bad 2008. Revenue declined by just 2%, but earnings per share and net income dropped by 74% and 77%, respectively. Qwest stock fell 43%. Thousands of employees lost their jobs.

But chairman and chief Edward Mueller got an annual bonus of $2.25 million, on top of $8.2 million in salary and other compensation.

Honeywell International, an aerospace and electronics company, missed earnings and cash-flow goals as both sales and earnings growth worsened. Nevertheless, chief David Cote got the fourth-largest discretionary bonus among Fortune 1,000 companies: $3.5 million. That was part of a $30.3 million pay package.

None of these examples includes the Wall Street bankers who got bonuses for driving the economy into the worst recession since the 1930s.

But, you know what, Cross? I'm sold on your version of capitalism. I do want to participate. I'm tired of listening to my state legislature tell me that my meager paycheck should be tied to my students ability to pass a test. Just tell me where I can sign up for a job where performance doesn't matter, profits don't matter, and I can still earn millions in bonuses.

I'm on board.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:54 am 
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I'm on your side with this zilla - I lost my job right around this time last year. I know for damn sure though that the people above me still got their hefty bonuses. In a recession, wouldn't it make sense to freeze staffing levels (like, if you fire someone, you're required BY LAW to hire someone in their place). Just saying...

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:36 pm 
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rabble rabble rabble class warfare rabble rabble

Zilla, did you go into teaching to make a lot of money and retire early?
No?
Well there ya go...the decisions we make have consequences.
I like my job and work hard to keep it. I'm sure your job is equally rewarding and fulfilling.
If I got fired tomorrow I wouldn't complain that the CEO still had a job.

Here's a shocking reality: CEO's and upper level executives are worth more than George the carpenter that works for them.
George can be easily replaced and often is.
When a company falls upon meager times people get fired...often the lowest earners go first.

My company laid off ~3500 people in the second 1/2 of last year alone.
It's called life and life isn't fair.

It's not the governments job to make it fair.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
rabble rabble rabble class warfare rabble rabble

Zilla, did you go into teaching to make a lot of money and retire early?
No?
Well there ya go...the decisions we make have consequences.
I like my job and work hard to keep it. I'm sure your job is equally rewarding and fulfilling.
If I got fired tomorrow I wouldn't complain that the CEO still had a job.

Here's a shocking reality: CEO's and upper level executives are worth more than George the carpenter that works for them.
George can be easily replaced and often is.
When a company falls upon meager times people get fired...often the lowest earners go first.

My company laid off ~3500 people in the second 1/2 of last year alone.
It's called life and life isn't fair.

It's not the governments job to make it fair.

Cross, this is a great argument to use against someone saying that everyone should be paid the same. If you find someone making such a claim, let me know and I will argue on your side.

However, my point is not that CEOs and carpenters should make the same amount of money, but that CEOs who do their jobs poorly and lose money for their company should not be rewarded with astronomical bonuses. In that sense I believe they should be held to the same standard that I am. Do your job or get fired.

Is it your argument that CEO are a special breed of people who should be paid no matter how they do (or don't) do their jobs?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
However, my point is not that CEOs and carpenters should make the same amount of money, but that CEOs who do their jobs poorly and lose money for their company should not be rewarded with astronomical bonuses. In that sense I believe they should be held to the same standard that I am. Do your job or get fired.

Is it your argument that CEO are a special breed of people who should be paid no matter how they do (or don't) do their jobs?


My point is it's not up to you, me or the government how much CEO's get paid for doing well or not.
That's up to their employer / board of directors / shareholders.

Get as outraged as you want, their compensation is most likely in a legally binding contract.
It's called business.

You're also pointing to rare and extreme cases. I mentioned my company shed over 3000 jobs last year...guess who was included?
the CEO, the CFO, the CTO and the chairman of the board.
They personally took responsibility for their performance and left.

I think you'll find that's a more common scenario than the other way around.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:08 pm 
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XC, you're right, but it doesn't make it any less "wrong".

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
However, my point is not that CEOs and carpenters should make the same amount of money, but that CEOs who do their jobs poorly and lose money for their company should not be rewarded with astronomical bonuses. In that sense I believe they should be held to the same standard that I am. Do your job or get fired.

Is it your argument that CEO are a special breed of people who should be paid no matter how they do (or don't) do their jobs?


My point is it's not up to you, me or the government how much CEO's get paid for doing well or not.
That's up to their employer / board of directors / shareholders.

Get as outraged as you want, their compensation is most likely in a legally binding contract.
It's called business.

You're also pointing to rare and extreme cases. I mentioned my company shed over 3000 jobs last year...guess who was included?
the CEO, the CFO, the CTO and the chairman of the board.
They personally took responsibility for their performance and left.

I think you'll find that's a more common scenario than the other way around.

For 2009 bonuses at financial firms worldwide increased by an average of 40% (according to Options Group, a New York-based executive search and compensation consultancy). This report was was based on data from 300,000 industry professionals worldwide.

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley alone gave out $35 billion combined in 2009.

So, that is how business works, eh? I'm glad you let me know, because I have been teaching my students that one of the fundamental principals of Adam Smith is that in a capitalist system inefficiency, ineptitude, and losing money are punished by the invisible hand of the marketplace. I've been getting that wrong all of these years. What Smith meant to say is that inefficiency, ineptitude, and losing money are REWARDED by the marketplace.

Back to the main idea of the thread: including college tax credits, making work pay, college loan relief, and home buyer credits, 90% of Americans got a tax break this year. The average tax refund is 10% larger than last year.


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