I was hanging out with a buddy of mine who is pretty religious and we debated whether or not churches should have be afforded tax exempt status on their property, their business or whether it's right that families get deductions when they enroll their children in private religious schools. I've never been a fan of tax exempt status for a personal choice and especially in the face of national debt it makes sense to me to re-think this policy. Is it right? I'm not talking about why we're in debt, politics, specific religions or religious merit. I'm talking specifically about whether it's right that a specific section of our society is getting tax breaks.

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No, it's not right. End of story.

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mechaphil

i disagree phil. i think some of it needs to be adjusted, but i think that the school thing is right.

I'm all ears to hear your views on it, Pat - care to elaborate?

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mechaphil

Getting a break for private school is ok in my opinion but the problem arises when you get a break if you go to a religious school and not when you go to a secular private school. I don't agree with special treatment like that.

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Um...ok Phil, but I'm going to offend someone I just know it. Well first off I think that the entire idea of separation of church and state, which was an ideal of our secular founders, is pissed all over when religious groups get special treatment. It's messed up when a business like the church is afforded not only a tax free place within which to operate but also is protected under some magic umbrella from paying taxes on those profits. I see it as not contributing to our country when you avoid taxes (I'm not talking about squeaking a bit extra on your return) and I see churches and church staff that don't pay taxes on par with illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes. Yeah I said it. I also think the problem with special treatment is compounded when church officials commit crimes and are protected from the laws that govern this country. They are just completely outside the laws and regulations that the rest of us live by and function under. "Dangerous" is a good word to sum it up.

Another thing this bleeds heavily into for me is when religious organizations push their beliefs on other people. They are not only afforded a private and safe place to practice their beliefs but also completely skirt taxes and that of course is not enough for them. They then go into public sections of our society preaching and pushing. They bribe and lie to get their dogma taught in PUBLIC schools when they have plenty of their own schools that are also tax exempt. They are not only special and protected but that protection seems to afford them the opportunity to infringe on other citizen's protected rights of secularism. The money that greases the political wheels in states like Texas and Louisiana to get creationism taught in public schools is the very money that is tax free. Something is broken here in my opinion.

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I actually meant PatGreen, but yea, speak your mind, too

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mechaphil

well, the only thing i'm going to get into is the school thing. public school have become very secular (and there isn't anything wrong with that) in the past few decades. even when my parents went to school it wasn't odd to have christian values all the time, and no one cares. now a large part of the public wants all christian ideas banned from school to show tolerance or no bias towards other religions.

so basically, if you want a public school to be secular, there should be tax breaks for parents who want their kids in christian school.

regular private schools rarely offer something that regular public schools or charter schools do not. so i don't think it's necessarily showing favoritism or bias to religion as it is allowing a different type of education for comparable costs.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with that angle. I might not agree with it, but I can't fault you for your logic as it's pretty sound.

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mechaphil

I see where you're coming from Pat. My problem is that public schools are supposed to be secular, it's not about wanting them to be, it's about separation of church and state and not favoring anyone. Churches, dinner tables, bible camps, youth groups etc etc are the places for religious morals to be shared, not public school. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on moral virtues either, especially not one religion more so than another. If a family wants to send their children to a special private school that teaches their particular flavor then why should they get a break? It's a personal choice as for where your kids will go to school and how you raise them. I just don't see why any parent who makes a choice for a private school over a public one should get a tax break whether they choose it for cultural, ethnic, educational quality, trade skills or religious reasons. I chose to send my son to a private school here in Colorado Springs because the local public school was ranked as one of the worst in the city....I got no tax break. My neighbor on the other hand (who is about as far from a christian as you can get) chose a christian private school (for the same reasons as me) because of the tax break and made out like a bandit. Aside from my neighbor being a douche I see nothing that explains why religious schools get that break.

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I spent one year at a Lutheran school as a kid.

We skipped a good number of scientific topics that I was interested in from my own reading for the simple reason that 'the Bible says this is wrong'.

I don't care for religious schools for that reason.

Lets see....
Everyone pays taxes (school taxes / property taxes / whatever the method is popular in your part of the country) to fund our public education system.
Sweet.

Some people decide to pay some more on top of that to send their kids to a school they deem better suits their children.
Bully for them.
They get a tax break because they pay *more* overall...this isn't a net decrease from public revenue if I understand your complaint.

You're not talking about a voucher system correct?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I'm really not fluent with any of the tax deductions or claims for private school versus private christian school. In most states though private school tuition cannot be claimed until college level but some states have passed (or are in the process of getting them voted on) laws that will let you claim some of your religious schooling as a donation. It is my understanding that the differences between private and private religious schools and what you can claim varies wildly. I wish I knew more about this but I just have never looked very far into it. I suppose I would have been better off if I would have stuck with tax exemption for churches and left off the school breaks. If anyone knows particulars about relgious school tax breaks versus secular private schools I'd like to know more.

Also, the big difference is that it's not about parents getting a tax break for spending "more". It's about how only those parents who's kids go to a religious school get those breaks.

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Well, if tuition = donation (for tax purposes) in state X, I believe you will find a lawsuit in state X over it.

I don't think that's a widespread practice however and it would never exist if the net effect was a decrease in revenue to the state.

If growing revenue for the state to use on schools is your battle cry, this is small potatoes. Most of our ever increasing education money goes to prop up insolvent and unsustainable union mandated pension funds. Not to teacher salaries, buildings, buses, books, materials etc.

I liked this: http://njn.net/news/coverage/2010/chris ... feb24.html
^^warning, almost 30 minutes long...no requirement to watch

But that's just me.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

yeah...there is a huge argument that will never end about the forefather's religion. some claim to be religious, some to be secular. it's hard to know what they originally had intended when they used "Under God", "In God We Trust", and the separation of church and state.

I think this is a good point. Some people may bring up the argument that "God" can mean *any* God, but where in ANY literature do you read about the forefathers acknowledging the Buddha, the prophet Muhammed, or even FSM?

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So what about tax exempt status for churches and clergy members etc?

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Good points on the individual tax ramifications.
My hot button is more on the institutional tax breaks. The Church of Scientology has tax exempt status in the US. Let me re-phrase that. The "church" of scientology, an incredible pyramid scheme enterprise, founded by a pill-head, mysoginist, hack science fiction writer who beat his wife, and was involuntarily committed to a mental asylum, and who stated that the only way to make big money was to start your own religion...has tax exempt status in the US.
This "church" applied for tax exempt status in Germany. Denied. Grounds? scientology is officially considered a cult in Germany.
This is low hanging fruit. I'd like to see tax exempt status revoked for these fucking crackpot religions right away. It seems like an easy way for politicians to get votes AND actually save some tax $.
As for ending the tax breaks for the more established religions, that might be different. I would be interested in seeing a cost benefit analysis before considering ending tax breaks for the "real" religions. If a religious organization, at least on a local level, wants to run a soup kitchen, or gather coats for the homeless, and things like that, we should take that into account. That is a real benefit to society and should be rewarded tax-wise.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

How about some tax breaks for people who are renting, and having trouble paying their bills(aka single people). If you don't own a house, and spew children from your vagina, then you are expected to carry the burden of society. Oh, did I mention paying to school said people's children?? After we get this flaw ironed out, maybe we can go after the rest of the dodgers.

I agree COMPLETELY with you about Scientology but let me add that MANY MANY Americans feel that way about every religious organization. I'm not talking about people who don't believe in a higher power but rather those who distrust and dislike the organized church itself. I mean to many Americans the idea of a man walking on water, Joseph Smith's "Prophecies" or 40 virgins waiting for us is just as nutty as Xenu and his volcano overpopulation story. That really isn't point though. The point is that religion is a personal choice and much like other personal choices it is a private, voluntary choice. I disagree completely with tax breaks for ANY religion because of that reason.

As for organizations that start a soup kitchen or the like I think anyone who starts one should get a tax break, not just a church. The "real benefit to society" that you talked about isn't reserved just for religious folks. I mean Churches and the like do not have a monopoly on morality, compassion or good will so why should they alone get those breaks for helping people out? The idea that christian morals (for example) are better than say the morals I instill in my children or that a Christian organization is better suited to gather coats for the homeless makes me laugh.

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