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Thoughts About War and Life
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Author:  PuckSniperPensel [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Thoughts About War and Life
I've done a lot of thinking about war during the escalation of tensions on the Korean peninsula, and I've come to the conclusion that war is a perpetual and futile battle that we'll be waging for all of time against multiple 'enemies' until we begin to approach those who defy us with empathy and compassion.

The only time war is necessary is in the interest of self defense. If you're attacked, obviously you have to fight back to protect yourself. But there is a line that needs to be drawn. World War 1 is a perfect example.

Germany was not only defeated in World War 1, but they were embarrassed and weakened by the Treaty of Versailles. This treaty ended up as one of the main causes of World War 2. They were eager to redeem themselves.

Had the league of nations shown some compassion and helped Germany, would they have struggled as terribly economically? Would they have felt the need for redemption? Or would the world have come closer together?

But the winner of a war is never actually a "winner." There are no winners.

Everything that you resist in life persists, and everything that you fight in life gets stronger in the end. It's one of the many laws of existence, and it holds true on multiple levels.

For example; we have antibiotics to fight infection. However, the stronger we make antibiotics, the stronger infectious bacteria become. There will never be a clear winner in this fight. It will be a constant and forever kind of battle.

The war against terrorism is draining our country of lives, weapons, and resources. We won't be over there forever. And when we leave, we'll have left many people bitter about our occupation. They'll build their groups back up, and prepare to attack again.

Try to find an example in life where this theory doesn't hold true.

Anything you resist, persists. Anything you fight, always ends up stronger and more determined in the end.
Author:  Stuuuuuuu [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
I was rereading an interview with Howard Zinn (RIP) last night, and war was a big theme in it. He was talking mainly about capitalism, but given that it was done in 2004, and the US was in two wars at the time (glad that's been straightened out 6 years later ), the conversation eventually came back to war, not only the war on "terror", but previous wars such as WW II and the Mexican American wars, as well as the myriad of covert wars the US fought over the 20th Century. He saw war as really the ultimate expression of capitalism in that it gives corporations an outlet for endless production. "National security" in the way it has so often been used to Zinn was not about physical safety, but about the security of corporate power to do whatever is in the best interest of the profit motive. I think he was on to something, and I think he is right in saying that until the desire for profit is no longer the driving force behind almost all personal and political decisions, we're doomed to repeat an endless cycle of war. Until "security" means the right to a good job, access to health care, and the ability to retire and live comfortably, there will always be a struggle to control what Marx called the means of production. And those who do control the means of production will keep waging war both to control those means, but also to generate more demand for producing more and more and more.

I have to think that in a very real sense, war and capitalism go hand-in-hand, and you can't eliminate one of them without eliminating the other.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Right, because communists, fascists and socialists have never started wars.

Being grossly simplistic with the capitalism hatred today.

EDIT: and you're really railing against the Military industrial complex (which is understandable), not capitalism itself.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Additionally, behold the wrath of capitalism and the industrial revolution.
Author:  Stuuuuuuu [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Crosscheck wrote:
Right, because communists, fascists and socialists have never started wars.

Being grossly simplistic with the capitalism hatred today.

EDIT: and you're really railing against the Military industrial complex (which is understandable), not capitalism itself.

And you're being incredibly over-simplistic with your counter argument. Arguing against capitalism doesn't mean arguing for dictatorship, which is what you mean by communism and facism. I'm all for democracy, but not capitalism.

And as far as the military industrial complex, what I'm saying is that putting profit first inevitably leads to that since the only way to keep making more and more and more is to acquire more and cut expenses. That means cutting pay, pensions, and eliminating healthcare. Then going out and getting your hands on the resources you want. So here we are, the only way most young people in lower economic levels can assure themselves a good pay, and free good healthcare is to join the military and go help the corporate rulers get want they need.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
I'm sorry, that's BS.
Most young people, of any economic level, if they want to assure themselves good pay, can excel at school, which is free for them through adulthood.
Then they can go to college, get an MBA and become a corporate master.

If their parents don't impress this upon them that's not a failure of society or capitalism.
Author:  PuckSniperPensel [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
My father dropped out of college.

He came home and got a job as an assistant manager at a local boat dealership. After 3 years of learning the ropes, he opened his own canvas shop. He ran that canvas shop for 2 years and saved money.

After his two years there, he bought a used car dealership and started his own boat dealership.

He's busted his ass every day of his life from 1982 and still works daily. 10 hours a day in the summer at the marina he was able to buy in 2005.

Now he has a lot of nice things and can do a lot of nice things for his family.

This is the case of my father and tons of friends I know share similar success stories with a can do attitude and some elbow grease.

The system hasn't failed anyone. If you want something in life, go get it. Don't blame misfortunes on the system.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Here's my thoughts:

If another country hates our beliefs to an extent where they feel it necessary to start a war, even if no nuclear weapons are involved, they shouldn't exist. This is why the USA feels democracy is so necessary among all nations. If you have multiple people and fair laws, chances are you're not run by a complete loony and fuck the world over. Korea is a dictatorship. As was Germany in WW2. War shouldn't be around. It can and should be abolished, and that, is what I think, can be fixed with democracy.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Well, Hitler was freely elected, so democracy doesn't solve everything ;)
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
But we aren't going to be changed into a dictatorship.
Author:  Displaced Fan [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
He saw war as really the ultimate expression of capitalism in that it gives corporations an outlet for endless production. "National security" in the way it has so often been used to Zinn was not about physical safety, but about the security of corporate power to do whatever is in the best interest of the profit motive. I think he was on to something, and I think he is right in saying that until the desire for profit is no longer the driving force behind almost all personal and political decisions, we're doomed to repeat an endless cycle of war. Until "security" means the right to a good job, access to health care, and the ability to retire and live comfortably, there will always be a struggle to control what Marx called the means of production. And those who do control the means of production will keep waging war both to control those means, but also to generate more demand for producing more and more and more.

I have to think that in a very real sense, war and capitalism go hand-in-hand, and you can't eliminate one of them without eliminating the other.


I agree with you. The world spins on money....bottom line is the bank roll. The rich never have enough to statisfy them and the poor never have enough to change their position. That being said though, clearly war isn't only fought for money and resources. I would add a footnote regarding religion and ideology into that statement.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.
Author:  Yhoshi [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.


for what did the US fight the first Gulf war?
Author:  PuckSniperPensel [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Yhoshi wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.


for what did the US fight the first Gulf war?


To make sure Saddam didn't advance into Saudi Arabia and take control over the majority of the world's oil supply.

The Saudis also paid approx. 36 billion of the 60 billion dollar cost of the war.
Author:  Stuuuuuuu [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.

It was purely humanitarian eh? Which is why we didn't lift a finger when a democratically elected leader was overthrown in Haiti by a military government the exact same year. I wonder what it was that made the people of Kuwait (led by a monarch) so much more important than the people of Haiti?
Author:  jvaccaro6 [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.

It was purely humanitarian eh? Which is why we didn't lift a finger when a democratically elected leader was overthrown in Haiti by a military government the exact same year. I wonder what it was that made the people of Kuwait (led by a monarch) so much more important than the people of Haiti?



If you can find an inexpensive way to convert everything we use on a daily basis to something other than oil, and not have it cost trillions of dollars upfront I'm all for it...I'll drive you to Washington myself, and pay every cent of your stay...
Author:  Yhoshi [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
PuckSniperPensel wrote:
Yhoshi wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.


for what did the US fight the first Gulf war?


To make sure Saddam didn't advance into Saudi Arabia and take control over the majority of the world's oil supply.

The Saudis also paid approx. 36 billion of the 60 billion dollar cost of the war.


so --> resources.

and their economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erster_Gol ... ieferungen (detailed list)
Author:  PuckSniperPensel [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
jvaccaro6 wrote:
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
We didn't fight the first Gulf war for money, corporations, capitalism, resources, religion or ideology.

It was purely humanitarian eh? Which is why we didn't lift a finger when a democratically elected leader was overthrown in Haiti by a military government the exact same year. I wonder what it was that made the people of Kuwait (led by a monarch) so much more important than the people of Haiti?



If you can find an inexpensive way to convert everything we use on a daily basis to something other than oil, and not have it cost trillions of dollars upfront I'm all for it...I'll drive you to Washington myself, and pay every cent of your stay...


Think the drive and incentive to find such a thing would have been pushed harder had we lost our cheap and easy access to oil?

Instead, we killed for it.
Author:  jvaccaro6 [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
Over simplified thinking.

What's going to happen to the price of goods if the US doesn't protect it's foreign interests in the economies life blood?

About 15x what you pay now would be my guess...can you afford to buy a loaf of bread for $15, or a pound of lunch meat for $40...I know I couldn't.


It's not the best way, and it's not the most humane way...but it's the way it is, and until someone can come up with a better source, that isn't going to bury the economy for 50 years, it's the way it's going to be.
Author:  PuckSniperPensel [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts About War and Life
jvaccaro6 wrote:
Over simplified thinking.

What's going to happen to the price of goods if the US doesn't protect it's foreign interests in the economies life blood?

About 15x what you pay now would be my guess...can you afford to buy a loaf of bread for $15, or a pound of lunch meat for $40...I know I couldn't.


It's not the best way, and it's not the most humane way...but it's the way it is, and until someone can come up with a better source, that isn't going to bury the economy for 50 years, it's the way it's going to be.


I find that hard to believe. We still would have been able to purchase oil at a reasonable rate. Maybe not quite as good, but it still would have been reasonable.

Even if it was ridiculous, economies would have just become more localized. None of that long distance, mass produced and shipped bull shit.
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