:: View topic - Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?

I believe it is the job of the GM to look at the players in question objectively, with the brain...without any 'fandom' or loyalty to the past. the GM is a forward looking job to accomplish two things:

-Win Games, now and in the future
-Keep Organization Financially Viable

That said, lets look at each player realistically and try to be objective:

Lydman- Turning 33 in the fall. Made 3.15M last year. Steady but unspectacular, has played in every role on the team and proven exceptional at none of them. Steady generally, though he plays physical enough that durability is probably a thought to keep in mind as he ages. Play seems unaffected by partner, same old same old. A reliable average second pairing guy. UFA Now.

Tallinder- Turning 31 over the winter. Made 3.25M last season. Less talented then Lydman on both ends of the ice. He seems to have gotten past his calcium deficiency issues. Should have a lot of years left as his style is contact free. As league gets more physical and opponents have gotten bigger, soft poke checking style has been an issue. A complementary player that needs a strong partner. UFA Now.

Butler- 24 in the fall. Made about 850K last season. Struggled last season and seems to still be trying to adapt to the speed of the NHL. Has been above average offensively at every level he has played at. Only 106 NHL games under his belt. 1 year left then RFA.

Sekera- 24 over the summer. Made 1.125M last season. Has probably less upside then Butler based on skill set and past performance. Has essentially 2 full NHL seasons under his belt (157 games). 1 Year left then RFA.

Montador- Turns 31 next winter. 1.55M last year, 1 year left then UFA. Not a great skater. Physical but not in a dominant way. Doesn't impose his will, but is chippy. Shouldn't be above a third pairing. Would be better served to being a role guy, like Boughner and not trying to become Lydman which he doesn't have the skills for other than a solid shot.

Weber- 23 in December. Great shot but not used as it should be. Very Physical, but maybe too much so to stay in one piece specially at the NHL level. Has nothing left to prove in AHL.

Gragnani- 23 a month ago. Has shown some offensive side, and seems capable on both ends though has also shown inconstancy and suffered from some brain cramps that a lack of physicality do not cover for. Either way, team must make a choice with him soon.

Others not yet ready, but organization is D heavy as far as prospects go with Brennen, Schiestel or even dark horse Kostka being ready to break in over the next couple of years and a large group of picks looks for a spot in Portland over the next year or two.

So what do i get from this all? I think you keep Lydman if you can as I think he can be a steady mentor to the young talent coming through. If I can get him at 3 years 7.5M I think I keep him. I skip Tallinder to start breaking up the log jam and free up cash. I give Butler one more year no doubt. I get Weber up here now, which presents an issue because I don't think Montador is a good pairing with him and I don't want him initially on my top two pairings. I also am starting to have a glut of Right handed D men instead of the lefty issue we had in years past.

Lydman-Myers
Butler-Rivet
Sekera-Weber
<Montador>

I can't solve all the world issues in one year...and I know this organization so I don't think a big splash PP guy is coming in the off season. Lydman is a better mentor and compliment to Myers IMHO then Tallinder was and lets him rush more. Butler and Sekera get one more year each but one year only, With one probably going after next year. Montador plays out his contract with Grags or another taking his spot in 11. HOPE Myers, Butler or Grags become the next Campbell, its the only way you're getting one.

the other option:

Lydman-Myers
<PP QB>-Rivet
Butler-Montador
Sekera

Again Tallinder really doesn't fit IMHO. If I were to do this, I seriously need to consider fixing my 'log jam' issue by trading at minimum either Weber or Grags plus probably another young gun or two. I guess you consider this if you believe the Sabres are only a couple of players away from a legit run at it. You are essentially look for Sekera & Butler to earn playing time vs one another.

Author:	gr8daygo [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Updated May 7, 2010 8:29 PM ET There are a lot of things that come along with joining a new organization. Finding a house. Searching for schools for the kids. Meeting new teammates. Getting in the coach's good graces. Truth is, Toni Lydman would rather not be bothered with all that. The laid-back, unrestricted free agent-to-be is quite comfortable in Buffalo. He has little desire to start over so a new deal with the Sabres would be fine with him. "It would save a lot of hassle," he said with a laugh. "That's a big thing." One of the bigger things for the Sabres this offseason is deciding what to do with Lydman and Henrik Tallinder. The defensemen headline the team's free-agent list. General manager Darcy Regier said the Sabres would love to keep them — but added a caveat. "At the right price," Regier said. "That's the hard part." Lydman just finished a four-year deal that averaged $2.875 million, while Tallinder closed a four-year contract with an annual salary cap hit of $2.56 million. Lydman is 32 years old and Tallinder is 31. It's safe to assume similar deals are in their future. It's not safe to assume those dollars will come from Buffalo. "I've been here so long, whatever Buffalo has to say, I'm ready to listen," Tallinder said. "We'll see what they want to do. If everything works out good, I might be back. Who knows? I don't even know yet." Tallinder, selected by the Sabres in the second round of the 1997 draft, has been a regular in Buffalo since 2002-03. Lydman has patrolled the blue line since being acquired from Calgary in August 2005. Based on the evidence, it's likely at least one of their long stays is over, if not both. The Sabres plan to search for a power-play defenseman this summer, and they feel they have two minor leaguers who may be ready to make the jump to the NHL. Mike Weber, 22, and Marc-Andre Gragnani, 23, just finished their third seasons in the American Hockey League. Gragnani scored 12 goals and added 31 assists in 66 games to finish 11th in points among AHL defensemen. Weber added five goals and 21 points in 80 games. The Sabres' time line seems to fit promoting them while letting the higher-priced veterans leave. "We have a group of, I think, very good young defensemen coming," Regier said. Lydman and Tallinder, however, showed their value to the organization this season. Lydman was the blue-line anchor in the playoffs, playing a team-high 26:14 per game while blocking the most shots (13). His 126 hits during the regular season were second only to forward Patrick Kaleta's 148. "To me it's more 'why fix it if it's not broken?' kind of mentality," Lydman said. "Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side; it just might be different. Like I said, the group of guys here is awesome, so I wouldn't mind staying at all." Tallinder's biggest contribution didn't show up on the score sheet — unless folks were looking at Tyler Myers' stats. He was Myers' partner from Day One and helped the rookie to a Calder Trophy-caliber season. Myers also boosted the stock of Tallinder, who rebounded from a couple of rough seasons to post a plus-13 rating. "I know what I could do out there," Tallinder said. "I just needed to get my head screwed on the right way. I think it was a more mental thing than physical or anything like that. I felt way more comfortable with myself as a person and as a player. If you have a good balance in your life and in your profession, then you're going to succeed. I managed to balance myself pretty good this season. "[Myers] brought a lot of enthusiasm. You want to keep up with the guy. I'm just happy to be able to play with him. We'll see, maybe more years." Lydman and Tallinder have seen Jaroslav Spacek and Brian Campbell give way to fresh faces. Although the players would be happy to stay, they know a new-team hassle could await. "Every year there's some changes," Lydman said. "Over here they've been patient, and I think that's been a good approach to have their own prospects and draft picks grow into players. Some of the guys have grown into stars in the league, and that's a good recipe." http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/Is-p ... der-050710

Author:	gr8daygo [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I didn't see the above posted, so I thought Id throw it out there... The problem I have is I really do like Hank and Toni... I don't want to over pay them.... But I would not mind seeing them return... On the other hand... Weber seems ready to step up and we need more of a pp QB D man... so what do you do? Do you try and move a Sekra, Butler, Montedor to try and make room for Toni and/or Hank... or do the first 3 offer more up side at a cheaper rate? This is why Id be a BAD GM! Im to attached to Toni and Tally.... because Id try and get them as cheap as I could... move Sekra and Montedor.... keep Tally and Toni.... add Weber and a PP QB D man.... of course this isn't a video game and I doubt they would take that much of a hit in salary to get under the cap...

Author:	BlueandYellow [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
The price is wrong, bitch.

Author:	ironyisadeadscene [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
HAHAHAHA

Author:	Dreakon [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I say try and get Lydman cheap and let Tallinder go. I like him but it seems like Lydman is genuinely more interested in staying here, and it's hard to look past the amount of hits he doles out and blocked shots in the playoffs. Plus he seems pretty solid no matter what pairing he's on, whereas Tallinder only really showed improvement when put on a line with a future elite defensemen. Who knows if he'll remain as solid should him and Myers split. Keep Lydman, dump Tallinder, bring Weber up full time. Put Sekera and Butler on the trading block and see what we can get for them... and either in that trade, in some other one or free agency, try for a top 6 PP QB defensemen. That'd be the ideal IMO. Myers {trade} Lydman Montador Weber Rivet Sekera/Butler or perhaps (a better mix of offensive D and defensive D) Myers Lydman Rivet {trade} Weber Montador Sekera/Butler

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Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder? http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3284	Page 1 of 2

Author:	YodaMage [ Sat May 08, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I believe it is the job of the GM to look at the players in question objectively, with the brain...without any 'fandom' or loyalty to the past. the GM is a forward looking job to accomplish two things: -Win Games, now and in the future -Keep Organization Financially Viable That said, lets look at each player realistically and try to be objective: Lydman- Turning 33 in the fall. Made 3.15M last year. Steady but unspectacular, has played in every role on the team and proven exceptional at none of them. Steady generally, though he plays physical enough that durability is probably a thought to keep in mind as he ages. Play seems unaffected by partner, same old same old. A reliable average second pairing guy. UFA Now. Tallinder- Turning 31 over the winter. Made 3.25M last season. Less talented then Lydman on both ends of the ice. He seems to have gotten past his calcium deficiency issues. Should have a lot of years left as his style is contact free. As league gets more physical and opponents have gotten bigger, soft poke checking style has been an issue. A complementary player that needs a strong partner. UFA Now. Butler- 24 in the fall. Made about 850K last season. Struggled last season and seems to still be trying to adapt to the speed of the NHL. Has been above average offensively at every level he has played at. Only 106 NHL games under his belt. 1 year left then RFA. Sekera- 24 over the summer. Made 1.125M last season. Has probably less upside then Butler based on skill set and past performance. Has essentially 2 full NHL seasons under his belt (157 games). 1 Year left then RFA. Montador- Turns 31 next winter. 1.55M last year, 1 year left then UFA. Not a great skater. Physical but not in a dominant way. Doesn't impose his will, but is chippy. Shouldn't be above a third pairing. Would be better served to being a role guy, like Boughner and not trying to become Lydman which he doesn't have the skills for other than a solid shot. Weber- 23 in December. Great shot but not used as it should be. Very Physical, but maybe too much so to stay in one piece specially at the NHL level. Has nothing left to prove in AHL. Gragnani- 23 a month ago. Has shown some offensive side, and seems capable on both ends though has also shown inconstancy and suffered from some brain cramps that a lack of physicality do not cover for. Either way, team must make a choice with him soon. Others not yet ready, but organization is D heavy as far as prospects go with Brennen, Schiestel or even dark horse Kostka being ready to break in over the next couple of years and a large group of picks looks for a spot in Portland over the next year or two. So what do i get from this all? I think you keep Lydman if you can as I think he can be a steady mentor to the young talent coming through. If I can get him at 3 years 7.5M I think I keep him. I skip Tallinder to start breaking up the log jam and free up cash. I give Butler one more year no doubt. I get Weber up here now, which presents an issue because I don't think Montador is a good pairing with him and I don't want him initially on my top two pairings. I also am starting to have a glut of Right handed D men instead of the lefty issue we had in years past. Lydman-Myers Butler-Rivet Sekera-Weber <Montador> I can't solve all the world issues in one year...and I know this organization so I don't think a big splash PP guy is coming in the off season. Lydman is a better mentor and compliment to Myers IMHO then Tallinder was and lets him rush more. Butler and Sekera get one more year each but one year only, With one probably going after next year. Montador plays out his contract with Grags or another taking his spot in 11. HOPE Myers, Butler or Grags become the next Campbell, its the only way you're getting one. the other option: Lydman-Myers <PP QB>-Rivet Butler-Montador Sekera Again Tallinder really doesn't fit IMHO. If I were to do this, I seriously need to consider fixing my 'log jam' issue by trading at minimum either Weber or Grags plus probably another young gun or two. I guess you consider this if you believe the Sabres are only a couple of players away from a legit run at it. You are essentially look for Sekera & Butler to earn playing time vs one another.

Author:	gr8daygo [ Sat May 08, 2010 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
YodaMage wrote: I believe it is the job of the GM to look at the players in question objectively, with the brain...without any 'fandom' or loyalty to the past. the GM is a forward looking job to accomplish two things: -Win Games, now and in the future -Keep Organization Financially Viable That said, lets look at each player realistically and try to be objective: Lydman- Turning 33 in the fall. Made 3.15M last year. Steady but unspectacular, has played in every role on the team and proven exceptional at none of them. Steady generally, though he plays physical enough that durability is probably a thought to keep in mind as he ages. Play seems unaffected by partner, same old same old. A reliable average second pairing guy. UFA Now. Tallinder- Turning 31 over the winter. Made 3.25M last season. Less talented then Lydman on both ends of the ice. He seems to have gotten past his calcium deficiency issues. Should have a lot of years left as his style is contact free. As league gets more physical and opponents have gotten bigger, soft poke checking style has been an issue. A complementary player that needs a strong partner. UFA Now. Butler- 24 in the fall. Made about 850K last season. Struggled last season and seems to still be trying to adapt to the speed of the NHL. Has been above average offensively at every level he has played at. Only 106 NHL games under his belt. 1 year left then RFA. Sekera- 24 over the summer. Made 1.125M last season. Has probably less upside then Butler based on skill set and past performance. Has essentially 2 full NHL seasons under his belt (157 games). 1 Year left then RFA. Montador- Turns 31 next winter. 1.55M last year, 1 year left then UFA. Not a great skater. Physical but not in a dominant way. Doesn't impose his will, but is chippy. Shouldn't be above a third pairing. Would be better served to being a role guy, like Boughner and not trying to become Lydman which he doesn't have the skills for other than a solid shot. Weber- 23 in December. Great shot but not used as it should be. Very Physical, but maybe too much so to stay in one piece specially at the NHL level. Has nothing left to prove in AHL. Gragnani- 23 a month ago. Has shown some offensive side, and seems capable on both ends though has also shown inconstancy and suffered from some brain cramps that a lack of physicality do not cover for. Either way, team must make a choice with him soon. Others not yet ready, but organization is D heavy as far as prospects go with Brennen, Schiestel or even dark horse Kostka being ready to break in over the next couple of years and a large group of picks looks for a spot in Portland over the next year or two. So what do i get from this all? I think you keep Lydman if you can as I think he can be a steady mentor to the young talent coming through. If I can get him at 3 years 7.5M I think I keep him. I skip Tallinder to start breaking up the log jam and free up cash. I give Butler one more year no doubt. I get Weber up here now, which presents an issue because I don't think Montador is a good pairing with him and I don't want him initially on my top two pairings. I also am starting to have a glut of Right handed D men instead of the lefty issue we had in years past. Lydman-Myers Butler-Rivet Sekera-Weber <Montador> I can't solve all the world issues in one year...and I know this organization so I don't think a big splash PP guy is coming in the off season. Lydman is a better mentor and compliment to Myers IMHO then Tallinder was and lets him rush more. Butler and Sekera get one more year each but one year only, With one probably going after next year. Montador plays out his contract with Grags or another taking his spot in 11. HOPE Myers, Butler or Grags become the next Campbell, its the only way you're getting one. the other option: Lydman-Myers <PP QB>-Rivet Butler-Montador Sekera Again Tallinder really doesn't fit IMHO. If I were to do this, I seriously need to consider fixing my 'log jam' issue by trading at minimum either Weber or Grags plus probably another young gun or two. I guess you consider this if you believe the Sabres are only a couple of players away from a legit run at it. You are essentially look for Sekera & Butler to earn playing time vs one another. solid analysis... thank you! how do you fix the power play? If we aren't really going to make a splash there, which I can see them sitting still there... how do we gain more scoring on the front end... in essence fixing the forwards... As much as I hate to say it, we seem to small up the middle... we could use a bigger first or second line C... BUT good luck finding one... and how do you adjust with the contracts of Timmy C and Roy.... I don't think they are to far from making a solid run... if Hect, Timmy C and Vanek were all healthy through the boston series, i dont think we lose... but it was clear that we need a little more something.... a tweak to solidify the top line... I love Ennis and hope he can keep his play up through a season Grier needs to be resigned... Kennedy I think will be a bit stronger in year two and some off season work Stafford can go

Author:	BlueandYellow [ Sat May 08, 2010 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I would say keep Lydman and get rid of Tallinder. Pick up Jordan Leopold (if he is available), and you have Myers, Lydman Rivet, Leopold Weber, Sekera Butler If we can pick up Biron and IF POSSIBLE (say somehow we dumped cap), we get another D man like Siedenberg. Then it would look something like this. Myers, Rivet Leopold, Weber Siedenberg, Lydman Butler Or any other kind of combination. Just an idea, cap space is an issue here.

Author:	CriminallyVu1gar [ Sat May 08, 2010 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Lydman's physical game is the one thing that has me wanting to keep him over Tallinder.

Author:	Sk8haggard9 [ Sat May 08, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Lydman is far more suitable for the direction this team wants to go. They need physical, rough, shotblocking D-men for the playoffs. Lydman beats Tallinder in this department every time.

Author:	Van_Da_Man [ Sat May 08, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Tallinder was that good last year mostly because of Myers. He is now expendable.

Author:	Skyline_BNR34 [ Sun May 09, 2010 2:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I'd give them both a dollar to stay, anymore they are gone, any less, they can stay also.

Author:	Sabresfansince1980 [ Sun May 09, 2010 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
1.7 mil is my price to keep either of them. Rivet's cap hit is 3.5 mil, and then it jumps down to Montador at 1.55 mil. I would slot both Tallinder and Lydman at about 1.7 mil. If either one wants more than 2 mil per I'd let them walk. Depending how bad the UFA market gets, it might be necessary to keep one or both. Leopold really isn't the player Buffalo needs. He had only two PP pts all season...two. I'm hoping Seidenberg's (9 pp pts) market value stays steady at his current 2.25 mil contract. Kurt Foster (26 pp pts) would be a great signing if his value doesn't go to high from his dirt cheap 600k contract. I'd would hope to sign him long-term for around 2 mil per since his right-handed shot would be needed after both Rivet and Montador's contracts run out next summer.

Author:	X-pensfan [ Sun May 09, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Lydman is an important guy to resign, having said that I don't know how high I would want to go. it really depends on the market. I mean, Lydman is comparable to a guy like Eaton who only makes 2 million. Sooo....I dunno. Maybe instead of paying a Lydman 2.5 or 3 maybe it's better to just fork out the extra 1.5 million for a Volchenkov.

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Author:	Jim Bob [ Mon May 10, 2010 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: 1.7 mil is my price to keep either of them. Rivet's cap hit is 3.5 mil, and then it jumps down to Montador at 1.55 mil. I would slot both Tallinder and Lydman at about 1.7 mil. If either one wants more than 2 mil per I'd let them walk. Depending how bad the UFA market gets, it might be necessary to keep one or both. Leopold really isn't the player Buffalo needs. He had only two PP pts all season...two. I'm hoping Seidenberg's (9 pp pts) market value stays steady at his current 2.25 mil contract. Kurt Foster (26 pp pts) would be a great signing if his value doesn't go to high from his dirt cheap 600k contract. I'd would hope to sign him long-term for around 2 mil per since his right-handed shot would be needed after both Rivet and Montador's contracts run out next summer. Lydman & Tallinder will both get MUCH better offers than $1.7M per on the open market. Jeff Finger got over twice that on the open market a couple of years ago with the Leafs. I would be surprised if Lydman & Tallinder get less than $3M per on the open market. And I won't be surprised if they are making $4M per or more. All it takes is one desperate/stupid GM that needs a legit NHL defenseman.... Or in this case, one or two stupid GMs

Author:	ScottP [ Mon May 10, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Yeah I could see either of them getting 3-3.5 per. Jay McKee signed with St. Louis for $4 mil per back in 06

Author:	Van_Da_Man [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
ScottP wrote: Yeah I could see either of them getting 3-3.5 per. Jay McKee signed with St. Louis for $4 mil per back in 06 Isn't Jay a free agent again this year? If he doesn't resign with Pitts could you see him coming back like Grier?

Author:	sabresrocker56 [ Mon May 10, 2010 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
Van_Da_Man wrote: ScottP wrote: Yeah I could see either of them getting 3-3.5 per. Jay McKee signed with St. Louis for $4 mil per back in 06 Isn't Jay a free agent again this year? If he doesn't resign with Pitts could you see him coming back like Grier? I would probably piss my pants with excitement.

Author:	ScottP [ Mon May 10, 2010 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is price right for Lydman, Tallinder?
I wouldn't hate it at all. He always was one of my favorites. I'd love Weber to develop into a player of his mold. That being said, I'm not sure how much of an upgrade he'd be. Years of playing a gritty, shot-blocking game seem to have caught up with him.