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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Thread topic is sure to draw some criticisms. Regardless, there's a pretty good article on the Devils blog 'In Lou We Trust' (article on THIS site). It talks about how many soft goals Brodeur let in and how they affect the team.

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In the regular season, I counted 35 soft goals allowed by Brodeur. The soft goals occurred across 27 games; or approximately 35% of the games Brodeur played in 2009-10. The Devils record in those 27 games was 12-14-1. Without knowing the record for other goalies in the league, I can't tell you that a winning percentage of 44% was good or not in games where soft goals were allowed. I can tell you that it doesn't seem so awful on it's own.

However, in those 15 non-wins, the soft goal allowed turned out to be the eventual game-winning goal 11 times. That's definitely not good. That said, I wouldn't immediately turn around and say that Brodeur was solely at fault for losing those 11 games. January 26 is a good example where I wouldn't argue that. The first goal Brodeur gave up was soft; but it was also the eventual game winner since the Devils were shutout by Ottawa 3-0. A quick look back of my recap of that game gives a better picture of what went on in the game (the Devils stunk in that one).

Adding to that, take a look at the playoffs. Brodeur gave up 3 soft goals out of 15 in two games (Game 1 and 4), and two of them turned out to be game winners. But anyone who saw the Devils' "attack" in the first round would know full well that had a lot more to do with the Devils faltering than the play of the goaltender.

It's still a good way to put the earlier work into context. Incidentally, those 15 non-wins represented 55.56% of all the games Brodeur lost in that 2009-10; and in each of those games, Brodeur gave up more than just one goal. It's not as if one error by Brodeur necessarily cost the Devils the game 15 times last season. Nevertheless, thanks to Todd for his question and I hope you, the reader, found this somewhat interesting. Please leave your thoughts in the comments, and as usual, thanks for reading.


Anyone willing to do the work on Mr. Miller?

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fly as hale
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:30 pm 
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The perception of a "soft goal" can be really subjective though. There are the obvious, blatant bad goals where pratically everyone knows that the goalie should have stopped it... But more times than not it's more of a gray area. Who was the shooter? Was it an odd-man rush? Was the goalie screened? People argue over these things all the time, and there is a lot that goes into making a save that some people seem oversee.

I think most of the importance of the save comes from key times in a game. Is the goalie allowing a bad goal when it's a one-goal game, late in the third period? Or is he allowing a bad goal when his team is up by a few? Obviously no one wants their goalie to let in a bad goal period, but it's going to happen.

The bottom line is, every goalie is going to let in crap goals from time to time...but what's more important is when is he allowing them, and how does he react after a bad goal?

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:34 pm 
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the hardest shot to save is along the ice. though they seem the easiest, they are the hardest because humans have less hand-eye coordination with their feet then hands (is it hand-eye coordination then?). also, the puck travels a smaller distance, and thus, you have less time to react. just tossing that out there.

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PuckSniperPensel
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:16 am 
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Soft goals mean nothing compared to numbers.

Big saves in the same game often go overlooked when a goaltender allows a "soft" goal, especially when the save happens at some point before the goal.

If Marty's stats are good, they have nothing to complain about. The same can be said for Miller.

People should really lay off goaltenders. It's the most difficult position on the ice.

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CriminallyVu1gar
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:38 am 
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fly as hale wrote:
The perception of a "soft goal" can be really subjective though. There are the obvious, blatant bad goals where pratically everyone knows that the goalie should have stopped it... But more times than not it's more of a gray area. Who was the shooter? Was it an odd-man rush? Was the goalie screened? People argue over these things all the time, and there is a lot that goes into making a save that some people seem oversee.

I think most of the importance of the save comes from key times in a game. Is the goalie allowing a bad goal when it's a one-goal game, late in the third period? Or is he allowing a bad goal when his team is up by a few? Obviously no one wants their goalie to let in a bad goal period, but it's going to happen.

The bottom line is, every goalie is going to let in crap goals from time to time...but what's more important is when is he allowing them, and how does he react after a bad goal?


This was my thought as well. It's impossible to agree on what's a soft goal in most cases.

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BagBoy
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Brodeur is 38. He's way past his peak and fading fast. I suppose he's still the Devil's best option as a starter, but if I were them, I would be giving Danis (their back-up goalie) about 25 starts this year. Brodeur started 76 games last year. He sucked in the Oympics. He's 16-26 in the last 6 playoffs.
He was truly one of the best goalies ever (maybe top 10?), but I think you have to be realistic about how good he is right now.

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powerplayer
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:19 pm 
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If I remember correctly, Brodeur has signed his last NHL contract. I think he only intends on a couple more seasons, if that.

Not a moment too soon. Athletes often have a tendancy to stay at the party too long. Who can blame them? Great money, fan adulation, etc. It is a select few stars who were able to walk away before degrading into minor league status *cough* Chelios *cough*.

Michael Jordan retired 3 times. Bret Favrerevrereve, what is it, eight times so far?

And it's not just sports:
Billy Joel and Cher have had a combined 25 farewell tours.


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fly as hale
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:24 am 
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I think Brodeur said that he plans on retiring in 2012.

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SabreWolf
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:31 am 
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Patrick Roy is still the better all time goalie.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:44 pm 
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SabreWolf wrote:
Patrick Roy is still the better all time goalie.


there are alot of all time better goalies... the list starts with ken dryden. second is tretiak. IMO

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CriminallyVu1gar
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:11 pm 
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1). Shields
2). Hasek
3). Biron
4). Miller
5). Conklin

none of this wah/brodeur business

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:39 pm 
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jokes aside, my list goes

dryden
tretiak
hasek
roy
plante

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mechaphil
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Tretiak never played against the best of the best (ie, the NHL). Also, Dryden's stand-up style wouldn't do jack in this NHL. Same for Plante.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:44 pm 
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in tretiaks day, the red army routinely beat the shit out of nhl all-star teams in exhibitions. and in the rare instances they didnt?

"During the 1976 Super Series, Tretiak put on a dominant performance against the Montreal Canadiens, helping them to a 3-3 tie despite his team being outshot 38-13."

and dryden... different styles for different eras. if dryden were 25, right now, hed be elite. he was so smart, he evolved with the game. in the late stages of his career, his catching hand was so badly wrecked from catching he pucks, he stopped using it. he started using his blocker and stick to stop shots on his left. he reprogrammed the way he played the game, on the fly, and never lost a beat.

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mechaphil
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:50 pm 
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But did Tretiak ever play in the NHL? Not against it, but in it? You can't arbitrarily throw a guy into the top 5 of all-time who we've only ever heard about from old men telling us he was possibly the best.

...well, you can arbitrarily throw him into it. That's what makes it arbitrary. You get the point.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:00 pm 
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he was drafted, but they wouldnt allow him in the NHL. so he retired. well, russia wouldnt allow him to come over.

back then, the NHL wasnt the best of the best. it was the best of the best in north america. its not like a picked a name out of the list to be different. he was named to the IIHF Centennial All-Star team. only 6 players made it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Tretiak

"Out of the entire Soviet roster, Canadian players and fans held Tretiak in the highest regard and respect and Tretiak was one of the most famous players of the Series along with Phil Esposito, Paul Henderson, and Valeri Kharlamov. As a result of Tretiak's stellar performance, many NHL teams wanted to draft him – Montreal ultimately did, in 1983 – and Tretiak was willing, but the move was blocked by the Soviet government."

have a read, its impressive.

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fly as hale
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:07 pm 
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mechaphil wrote:
Also, Dryden's stand-up style wouldn't do jack in this NHL. Same for Plante.

But I still don't think you should discount them all because they played in different eras. I would still consider them the best of the best, even though their styles might not be as effective as it was back when they played.

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mechaphil
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:12 pm 
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I can discount them for it. Today's players have an elevated talent and fitness level the players during older levels can't even begin to approach. To me, the NHL is divided into pre-Oilers dynasty and post-Oilers dynasty.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:13 pm 
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fly as hale wrote:
mechaphil wrote:
Also, Dryden's stand-up style wouldn't do jack in this NHL. Same for Plante.

But I still don't think you should discount them all because they played in different eras. I would still consider them the best of the best, even though their styles might not be as effective as it was back when they played.


BINGO! it should be noted goaltenders wernt allowed to drop to their knees to stop a shot until.. i wanna say the 40s? players used stand up because they didnt wear masks as well, and going down brought their head into the goal frame. plante finally went with a mask.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Mr Softie....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:20 pm 
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NEVERMIND, i dont want to start an argument.

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Last edited by ironyisadeadscene on Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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