:: View topic - Sabres - Goats and Illusions

Butler is still very young and hasn't really made any clear costly mistakes. Mac does get some gripe from time to time, and I'm sure if he doesn't start producing in the next couple games, people will start to get on him again.

Vanek really hasn't had consecutive games this season where he is a noticeable guy out there, and with his contract and recent years production, fans are going to expect Vanek to produce and get chances night in and night out.

Potential is useless, and the contract was thrown at him under a convoluted set of circumstances. That said I don't expect all fans to understand that. The ones that don't pay attention see contract numbers and automatically expect to see an equivalent in pts.

Darcy didn't like matching the offer, but felt forced into it. His best potential is a 45-30-75 type of season with stronger defensive awareness. That will never be worth 7 million per season, and the entire organization knows this.

Well, in 06-07 the game was a pinball machine, so that 43-41-84 season should be viewed with a strong dose of perspective. After the offer sheet and the reluctant matching, Vanek has shown nothing more than he ever did - an ability to score tempered with a shaky defensive game/effort. That is and always has been his game, so I'm not sure what "potential" means for him anymore.

We should expect him to score 40 goals, but maybe not considering the added emphasis on defense so far this season. That means the forwards won't be hanging around the offensive zone so much and leaving the d hanging out to dry, so Vanek won't see as many scoring chances. I expect 35+ goals and about 60 pts...that's it.

I just don't know why you keep harping on the contract. It wasn't offered to him the way EVERY OTHER CONTRACT in the NHL is offered. He never delivered a 7 million dollar season, and he was never expected to be a 7 million dollar player. He didn't produce to that contract and then tank, it was thrown at him as a under handed attempt to hijack the roster.

Considering the fact that Vanek had 6 goals in his 15 games so far, he's on pace for about 32 goals in the regular season. Taking into account that he didn't really do anything this year so far and usually hits a 10 to 20 game stretch where he totally rips it up, 40 goals from him should be still possible.

What bothers me more about him than that endless "contract issue" is how a player with his abilities can just plainly look so lost and out of tune out there a lot of times.

Author:	CriminallyVu1gar [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Sabres - Goats and Illusions
I find it a bit ridiculous that people rail on Vanek, and Chris Butler and Clarke MacArthur escape much ire. People want to talk up Butler a lot, but the truth his his +/- is the worst on the team, and we're not seeing much offensive contribution out of him either. Ditto MacArthur the past few games. People can cry contract all they want, but that's the fault of management, not Vanek, and the truth is, we're not paying Butler and MacArthur to suck either.

Author:	mechaphil [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
When the price point is much lower, players escape a lot of criticism. It is what it is.

Author:	Rud [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Vanek is excepted to be this team's franchise forward and is coming nowhere near that expectation. Butler and MacArthur don't have this expectation to live up to.

Author:	Sabresfansince1980 [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Nobody in the organization is expecting Vanek to be a franchise forward.

Author:	Rud [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
This topic is about fan criticism, no? I'm fairly certain most Sabres fans would consider Vanek to be a franchise forward, due to his potential and the length of his contract.

http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/

Sabres - Goats and Illusions http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=954	Page 1 of 3

Author:	motzie12ak [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Butler is still very young and hasn't really made any clear costly mistakes. Mac does get some gripe from time to time, and I'm sure if he doesn't start producing in the next couple games, people will start to get on him again. Vanek really hasn't had consecutive games this season where he is a noticeable guy out there, and with his contract and recent years production, fans are going to expect Vanek to produce and get chances night in and night out.

Author:	NYIntensity [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Franchise forward? Pat Kaleta. Sign him for a million years.

Author:	Rud [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: Potential is useless, and the contract was thrown at him under a convoluted set of circumstances. That said I don't expect all fans to understand that. The ones that don't pay attention see contract numbers and automatically expect to see an equivalent in pts. Darcy didn't like matching the offer, but felt forced into it. His best potential is a 45-30-75 type of season with stronger defensive awareness. That will never be worth 7 million per season, and the entire organization knows this. I'm not going to argue with you about the contract, as I agree that his deal is pretty inflated and management backed themselves into a corner when it came to his deal. But, potential is useless? Potential is useless when it comes to how the player is performing, yes, but potential means everything when it comes to expectations. Vanek has proven himself capable to be an offensive force and able to lead this team once they get into the opposition's zone, and that is from where his expectations are derived. He's shown himself capable of being a fulcrum to this team's success, why shouldn't that be factored in when evaluating his play as of recently?

Author:	Skyline_BNR34 [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Well MacArthur had the perfect pass that made Vanek's goal tonight happen. He fed it through 2 Flyers's sticks and put it right to where Vanek could rip that shot, and it was super quick.

Author:	slesh [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: Well, in 06-07 the game was a pinball machine, so that 43-41-84 season should be viewed with a strong dose of perspective. After the offer sheet and the reluctant matching, Vanek has shown nothing more than he ever did - an ability to score tempered with a shaky defensive game/effort. That is and always has been his game, so I'm not sure what "potential" means for him anymore. We should expect him to score 40 goals, but maybe not considering the added emphasis on defense so far this season. That means the forwards won't be hanging around the offensive zone so much and leaving the d hanging out to dry, so Vanek won't see as many scoring chances. I expect 35+ goals and about 60 pts...that's it. Wow, for 7 million? Have said time and time again, should have taken the 4 1st round picks. I don't expect Vanek to score 40 a season, but I would like to see 75+ points a season, the norm for 7 mil a season.

Author:	slesh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Sabresfansince1980 wrote: I just don't know why you keep harping on the contract. It wasn't offered to him the way EVERY OTHER CONTRACT in the NHL is offered. He never delivered a 7 million dollar season, and he was never expected to be a 7 million dollar player. He didn't produce to that contract and then tank, it was thrown at him as a under handed attempt to hijack the roster. I completely agree with you, and I am not harping on Vanek for it, not at all. I am targeting Darcy on this one. It was his call and he made it. By no means do I think it was a total loose on the decision either. His staff and him rolled the dice to keep him, I have very little to complain about, he's put up good goal numbers in the past seasons. Nope, the only thing I would like to see is more helpers from him. And more consistency. But you are correct, it is Darcy's responsibility as to what is ongoing in this situation. My opinion, 4 1st round picks seem a better fit than Vanek right now. Some of those picks would be coming into their own in the AHL and perhaps with the big club.

Author:	Sabresfansince1980 [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Don't worry, there are all kinds of soft teams coming up on the schedule that could pad his stats. Now for tough teams and the playoffs...

Author:	sixx58 [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Considering the fact that Vanek had 6 goals in his 15 games so far, he's on pace for about 32 goals in the regular season. Taking into account that he didn't really do anything this year so far and usually hits a 10 to 20 game stretch where he totally rips it up, 40 goals from him should be still possible. What bothers me more about him than that endless "contract issue" is how a player with his abilities can just plainly look so lost and out of tune out there a lot of times.

Author:	slesh [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
sixx58 wrote: Considering the fact that Vanek had 6 goals in his 15 games so far, he's on pace for about 32 goals in the regular season. Taking into account that he didn't really do anything this year so far and usually hits a 10 to 20 game stretch where he totally rips it up, 40 goals from him should be still possible. What bothers me more about him than that endless "contract issue" is how a player with his abilities can just plainly look so lost and out of tune out there a lot of times. 32 For the Season? Based on what math? 17 games so far. 82 game season. 82 divided by 17 = 4.8235294 x 6 (goals per 17 games) = 28.941176 So rounding to the nearest whole number, 29 goals this season. If he hadn't of scored last night it would look like this = 24.117647 So rounding to the nearest whole number would have been 24 goals this season. What happens "if" (theoretical) he falls below the 6 goals in the next 17 game stretch? At his current level of play that could very well happen. Of course, he could explode for 10 or 12 goals in the next 17 games just as well. I think we will have a better feel for Vaneks numbers at the halfway mark of the season. Not to sound like a broken record, but I think Roy plays ok with him, but Stafford just does not fit on Line 1. That would leave Pomminville and I didn't see any improvement with him playing there as well. But this is all speculation on who is a better fit for the lines. I am not the Coach, therefore, I do not see the practices every day and evaluate the players chemistry daily. I only have game data to go off of.

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Author:	AudSabres [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
Vanek, to me, just doesn't seem as hungry for the goals this season as he was last season. Now, did I jump up and shout "FUCK YEAH" when he scored last night? Your god damn right I did. I think he is able to play better than he is so far this season, but that is the same for every guy. No matter how good you are, how much you make, you should always be pushing yourself to be better and find other ways of scoring. You're not always going to be dished a sweet pass in the slot for a shot on goal, or a goal. One thing I've never put much behind though, was +/-. I mean, what are the chances there is a line change, you're just jumping over the boards, skates haven't even hit the ice yet and the puck goes in? And you get dinged with the minus because it was your shift. You're not even in the play and you get the "Blame" in terms of stats? It's plagued me, just the same as anyone who has ever played the game. It also goes the other way. You can get a plus for hopping on the ice when a goal is scored and you didn't do shit to contribute to the play. but it looks good on the stat sheet. I dunno, to me, it's pointless.

Author:	mechaphil [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sabres - Goats and Illusions
sixx58 wrote: Considering the fact that Vanek had 6 goals in his 15 games so far, he's on pace for about 32 goals in the regular season. Taking into account that he didn't really do anything this year so far and usually hits a 10 to 20 game stretch where he totally rips it up, 40 goals from him should be still possible. What bothers me more about him than that endless "contract issue" is how a player with his abilities can just plainly look so lost and out of tune out there a lot of times. You know Vanek has looked like absolute tripe when our beloved Austrian members who were so blindly supportive of him last season and took all the criticism directed at him personally are seeing how invisible and devoid of passion he looks.