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Squanto
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:47 am 
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Carlos Spicy-Wiener
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There's clearly an air of complacency with these companies. They never have a problem, so they start getting lax with procedures, and safety gets compromised.

Regulators and inspectors should stop this, but even then get complacent when nothing bad happens. Standards start to slip, and the spiral continues until something bad happens.


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PatGreen
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:51 am 
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NYIntensity wrote:
I'm interested in what you think might happen if one of these caverns collapses, Pat. Or how you think it *will* collapse. If the contents are under pressure and the contents are removed with no replacement, I can understand your fear of collapse. But they're being backfilled with saltwater, which, unless some crazy atmospheric anomaly occurs, is the same thing applying pressure from the outside. Oil is more dense than water but that just means that more water goes into the cavern.

I'm all ears to a lesson if I'm mistaken, but I think the fear of collapse is illogical.

denser items under solid pressure of rock acts like a rock. the layers of rock are compromised by the drilled holes, which weaken the system. put a piece of plywood over 2 2x4's 5 feet apart and walk across it. drill holes through it, roughly 1" in diameter, then cover them with wood filler. walk across it. it breaks.

conversely, step on an unopened pop bottle. it won't collapse. open it and then drink a swig or two. then close it. step on it. you'll collapse it a little. the pressure is changed and the seal has been compromised.

saltwater and oil are so completely different and act differently in their environments. throw in the compromised rock layers under millions of tons of pressure from the water.


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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:02 am 
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Squanto wrote:
There's clearly an air of complacency with these companies. They never have a problem, so they start getting lax with procedures, and safety gets compromised.

Regulators and inspectors should stop this, but even then get complacent when nothing bad happens. Standards start to slip, and the spiral continues until something bad happens.

Again, this sounds like a sweeping opinion based on assumptions by a lay person.

Evidence please.
Proof.

If what you're saying is true, criminal charges should be the result of this accident correct?

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Squanto
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:06 am 
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Carlos Spicy-Wiener
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It's a generalization for sure, but I think fairly accurate one when considering any business that has safety oversight.

Criminal charges? I don't know. How do you equitably place blame? Who's more at fault, the company that didn't follow regulations, or the agency that knew they weren't and didn't do anything about?


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:15 am 
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PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
I'm interested in what you think might happen if one of these caverns collapses, Pat. Or how you think it *will* collapse. If the contents are under pressure and the contents are removed with no replacement, I can understand your fear of collapse. But they're being backfilled with saltwater, which, unless some crazy atmospheric anomaly occurs, is the same thing applying pressure from the outside. Oil is more dense than water but that just means that more water goes into the cavern.

I'm all ears to a lesson if I'm mistaken, but I think the fear of collapse is illogical.

denser items under solid pressure of rock acts like a rock. the layers of rock are compromised by the drilled holes, which weaken the system. put a piece of plywood over 2 2x4's 5 feet apart and walk across it. drill holes through it, roughly 1" in diameter, then cover them with wood filler. walk across it. it breaks.

conversely, step on an unopened pop bottle. it won't collapse. open it and then drink a swig or two. then close it. step on it. you'll collapse it a little. the pressure is changed and the seal has been compromised.

saltwater and oil are so completely different and act differently in their environments. throw in the compromised rock layers under millions of tons of pressure from the water.


Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

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Crosscheck
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:23 am 
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Squanto wrote:
How do you equitably place blame? Who's more at fault, the company that didn't follow regulations, or the agency that knew they weren't and didn't do anything about?

Easy...the buck stops with BP.
If they are using subcontractors they can then work within their contracts to recoup money lost to their negligence, if that fails they can sue.

As for the government being held responsible...oh lord I would pay money to see that. Never going to happen.
Maybe 1 or 2 sacrificial scapegoats. We'd be a whole lot better off if government employees were held to the same standards as private employees that actually have to produce and perform.

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PatGreen
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:34 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:34 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.

right, but if they're already back-filled with saltwater...

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PatGreen
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Easy...the buck stops with BP.

We'd be a whole lot better off if government employees were held to the same standards as private employees that actually have to produce and perform.

exactly. for both.


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PatGreen
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:36 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.

right, but if they're already back-filled with saltwater...

different densities. the rock could still collapse and push all of the water that was previously there out at super high velocities and thus tidal waves.


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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:37 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.

right, but if they're already back-filled with saltwater...

different densities. the rock could still collapse and push all of the water that was previously there out at super high velocities and thus tidal waves.

Yeah, I see your point, but at the same rate, with at least *something* being in there, it's not all gushing in and some giant air bubble will come out.

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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:40 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.

right, but if they're already back-filled with saltwater...

different densities. the rock could still collapse and push all of the water that was previously there out at super high velocities and thus tidal waves.


i was talking about this yesterday with some friends. i gave this EXACT hypothesis, and they looked at me, and changed the subject to american idol.

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NYIntensity
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:45 pm 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
PatGreen wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Your wood comparison makes no sense to me at all if we're talking about pressure in a container. The soda bottle makes more sense, and I understand your concern from that. I don't think there's any way we can replicate the pressure. That being said, what if they collapse? Doesn't it just make a big hole in the ground?

the wood was to show the compromising of the integrity of the stratum of rock. sorry if i didn't say that.

okay, these aren't little 50 foot holes. these are billions of gallons space. you're talking closer to cubic kilometers than cubic meters. water floods them super quick and the energy is formed into massive waves that manifest themselves in different ways. tidal waves would be a prime example.

right, but if they're already back-filled with saltwater...

different densities. the rock could still collapse and push all of the water that was previously there out at super high velocities and thus tidal waves.


i was talking about this yesterday with some friends. i gave this EXACT hypothesis, and they looked at me, and changed the subject to american idol.

that's bullshit.
1) I don't believe you have friends, and
2) Nobody cares about American Idol.

;)

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Holy fucking fuck...Boyes couldn't suck a dick if it landed in his mouth.


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ironyisadeadscene
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:47 pm 
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i knew you were kidding right away. haha.

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Squanto
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Carlos Spicy-Wiener
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NYIntensity wrote:
that's bullshit.
1) I don't believe you have friends, and
2) Nobody cares about American Idol.

;)


Leader in the clubhouse for post of the year.


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Stuuuuuuu
 Post subject: Re: Blame game
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:05 pm 
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I think the most important point about what happens to the holes in the sea floor when oil is extracted is that no one really knows. BP doesn't know, Exxon doesn't know, the EPA doesn't know. So in doing this kind of drilling, you're really rolling the dice and hoping for the best. That's scary to me.


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