http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/ |
|
| Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... http://www.sabresjunkie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=607 |
Page 1 of 3 |
| Author: | Crosscheck [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Gov. Paterson doesn't need a threat assessment...he'd never see it coming anyway. Yay N.Y Democrats...you 1 trick pony you...tax it up, that'll help things even more. |
|
| Author: | icehound [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Paterson's shelf-life is becoming shorter and shorter...Must be difficult to have made oneself so popular. Especially among one's own party. Most centrist Democrats are viewing him as something of a loose cannon and an embarassment. He needs to lower his profile and stop coming up with so many "brilliant" ideas. |
|
| Author: | Godsmack [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Eh NY needs a Governer without a coke problem |
|
| Author: | PuckSniperPensel [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Why shouldn't they collect the taxes? Those tribes are filthy rich, and if the state can collect that much more in tax dollars to help with the ever growing debt, then why not? (Seriously, that question isn't rhetorical.) |
|
| Author: | acrossthelines [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
I would support the Senecas like crazy were this to actually come to fruition... I already do, because neither the national nor state governments honor the majority of treaties. It's ridiculous. I've spent time on a reservation before... They have nothing... The stats speak for themselves, but it's entirely different to see them in person. 
|
|
| Author: | Squanto [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
People don't understand the laws involved. The Buffalo Creek treaty of 1842 says that the Senecas will not be taxed by the NY government. The state IS NOT TRYING TO TAX THE SENECA PEOPLE. Under existing NYS tax law, if you buy something outside of NYS, and bring it into NYS, you're supposed to pay taxes on that. This is a commonly ignored law, but it's a law regardless. For example, let's say you go to PA, and purchased a TV at a 0% tax sale. You take that TV back to your home in NY. By law, you're required to pay NY state sales tax on that TV even though you didn't buy it in NY. Now, almost nobody actually claims this and pays the tax. I'm sure some businesses do, because of the volume of goods they move, but most individuals don't. Let's turn to tobacco. We all know that the state taxes the snot out of tobacco products. When you go to a reservation, you don't pay that tax. Remember that the reservations are technically sovereign territory, and thusly NOT part of NYS. So, you're purchasing a product outside of NY (on the res) and bringing it back into NY. By definition, you're supposed to claim that on your taxes, and pay the tax that you didn't pay on the reservation. Obviously, nobody does this. So, the state passed a law that says Native American tobacco retailers are required to collect these unpaid taxes from anyone who isn't a registered Native American. They basically said "Well, we can't enforce our own tax laws, so we want you do." THAT is the crux of the problem. At no time are Native Americans being taxed, or any parts of the Buffalo Creek treaty being violated. The Senecas know that their rights are not being infringed, but they know if non-Native Americans are forced to pay taxes on gas/tobacco (that they are legally required to anyways), they'll lose their competitive advantage in those markets. They also object (and rightfully so) to being a tax collection arm for the NY government. They can scream about honoring treaties all they want, but this has nothing to do with sovereignty rights. It's 100% about maintaining their competitive advantage in the tobacco and petroleum markets. |
|
| Author: | Sabres2Sabres [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
I agree with that, but I don't. The Senecas have more than enough money to support their population, however it is concentrated in the hands of a few corrupt "leaders." (What else is new?) However, I don't think it is fair to yet again try to skew some treaty to enable the government to have their way. |
|
| Author: | Squanto [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
This is the thing; it's not skewing the treaty at all. The tax law requiring this payment of taxes for out of state stuff has been on the books for a LONG time, much longer than this controversy. It wasn't a big deal for a long time because tobacco and gas taxes weren't that high. As the taxes on those products was jacked up, the Native American retailers started getting more business, since their prices weren't affected by the tax increases. That drove more and more business their way, which prompted the state to increase the taxes again to offset the loss of revenue, which drove more business to the reservations....etc, etc. If it costs me $3 for a gallon of gas on or off the reservation, what incentive do I have to drive to the reservation? None. That takes business away, and THAT's what the Seneca business leaders are afraid of. So, they rally people around the idea that the state is trying to violate these treaties to keep the status quo. Sounds like a familiar strategy, no? 
|
|
| Author: | Crosscheck [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
No more broken treaties please. Paterson is an asshat for even mentioning it. At least here in Ca., the state gets gobs and gobs of revenue from indian casinos...that should be enough for NY too. |
|
| Author: | CriminallyVu1gar [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
*grumbles* |
|
| Author: | PuckSniperPensel [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Crosscheck wrote: No more broken treaties please. Paterson is an asshat for even mentioning it. At least here in Ca., the state gets gobs and gobs of revenue from indian casinos...that should be enough for NY too. ... and so do the reservations. If we can generate tax revenue by forcing people to pay taxes that they're evading and should be paying anyways, then we should do it. |
|
| Author: | Crosscheck [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
PuckSniperPensel wrote: ... and so do the reservations. If we can generate tax revenue by forcing people to pay taxes that they're evading and should be paying anyways, then we should do it. No, we should leave the Indians the fuck alone. |
|
| Author: | Squanto [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
PuckSniperPensel wrote: If we can generate tax revenue by forcing people to pay taxes that they're evading and should be paying anyways, then we should do it. This, I agree with. I don't agree with the idea that the Native Americans should be the ones responsible for the collection, although I don't really know how else you pull that off. |
|
| Author: | slesh [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
PuckSniperPensel wrote: Why shouldn't they collect the taxes? Those tribes are filthy rich, and if the state can collect that much more in tax dollars to help with the ever growing debt, then why not? (Seriously, that question isn't rhetorical.) Actually, they can't tax the nations, period. Oh they can try, and have in the past, it would directly violate the treaty in place and just as happened in the past, it wasn't the violence, but the years of court battles to come over that very treaty that would really hurt. NY may be able to collect short term, but would be forced to pay back all of that money. Simply put, Any GOVERNMENT, cannot force its will on a SOVERIGN NATION. It really is that simple. The bar association did all kinds of mock trial runs at this in the early 90's at Harvard, Princeton and Columbia Universities. All came to the same conclusions, NY would be putting its longterm financial situation in serious jeopardy if they attempt to go after this. |
|
| Author: | Squanto [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
You guys are missing the point. NOBODY IS TRYING TO TAX SOVERIGN NATIVE AMERICAN INDIVIDUALS OR BUSINESSES. THE STATE IS TRYING TO GET THE INDIAN NATIONS TO COLLECT TAXES ON SALES TO NON-INDIANS. |
|
| Author: | acrossthelines [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
The issue is not that they are being taxed, necessarily... The ramifications of that would be that nobody would visit the reservation for the purpose of making purchases anymore, and any business they had would go down the toilet. The only reason people go out of their way to purchase tobacco products and gas there is the fact that they do not have to pay NYS taxes on it. Native Americans already have an unemployment rate that is significantly higher than the national average, and the vast majority of them live in poverty, to say the least. I don't know exactly how it is for the Senecas in New York, but based on what I have looked up, almost all reservations are just like the one I visited in Arizona in terms of poverty, unemployment, racism (which unfortunately has a lot to do with the unemployment rates of those who live on reservations), physical and sexual abuse, and addiction. Well, the unemployment rate for the Senecas in New York was 45% in 2006. That didn't take long to look up. Essentially, the only places that most Native Americans can find work are in casinos and other businesses run by their own nations, and forcing them to collect taxes on what they sell, however legal it may be, would take a part of that away from them. Leave them alone. |
|
| Author: | TRBirdman [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
It's really quite simple, as Squanto has so excellently explained . . . NYS sucks at their tax collecting job, so they've schemed to have the Indians do it for them. I hope NYS is paying the Indians for being their tax collector. It sounds like bullying to me. Pens, your redistribute the wealth comment troubles me: Why shouldn't they collect the taxes? Those tribes are filthy rich, and if the state can collect that much more in tax dollars to help with the ever growing debt, then why not? Therefore, simply because someone has more money than others, then they should be compelled to share it? If so, I consider that stealing, extortion, racketeering. Kinda like what's going on in our country now, ay? Leave the Indians alone! |
|
| Author: | YankeeInRaleigh [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Squanto wrote: You guys are missing the point. NOBODY IS TRYING TO TAX SOVERIGN NATIVE AMERICAN INDIVIDUALS OR BUSINESSES. THE STATE IS TRYING TO GET THE INDIAN NATIONS TO COLLECT TAXES ON SALES TO NON-INDIANS. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one capable of seeing your posts in this thread or something... |
|
| Author: | mechaphil [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
Yea, X makes sense. If they did try to tax the Native Americans, they'd just blow up the bridges on the reservation in Irving. They have the dynamite ready and raring to go. |
|
| Author: | Sk8haggard9 [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Prepare thee, for tire fires on 90... |
All Patterson is going to do by not stepping down is waste money and split the party. Obviously he can't see whats right for the party. |
|
| Page 1 of 3 | All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|