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Some Evil Stuff
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Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Some Evil Stuff
http://news.yahoo.com/bills-seek-end-fa ... -container

So basically what they're saying is, fuck off and let law enforcement take care of it, even though law enforcement won't take care of it.
Author:  Stuuuuuuu [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Yup, seems like a blatant attempt to silence bad press by the farming industry.

Buy free-range meat or hunt it yourself if possible.
Author:  PatGreen [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
yeah, this is super crappy and shady legislation. not to mention morals and ethics.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Take a drive sometime down I-5 from San Francisco to Los Angeles...along the way there's a place called Coalinga.
In Coalinga they have what I have to assume are some of the largest cattle feed lots in the country.
You can smell it from miles away...tens or hundreds of thousands of cattle on their last stop before slaughter.

My friends and I call it "Cowschwitz" because we're assholes.

You can see it from the road...you don't need undercover videos to see being a cow headed for slaughter is more than slightly unpleasant.
The plain truth is, if your job is killing things by the thousands, you're probably not going to have any sort of compassion or respect for those things.

I don't know if there's any way to legislate that.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Well if you were going to die, would you rather to be pampered and live decently before being off'd or would you like to be ravaged and tortured for hours on end? Not to mention the way they bring up, feed, and treat the animals makes the meat incredibly unhealthy.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Well at Cowschwitz, those animals are raised for a year and a half or so out grazing like normal animals, then when they're big enough they're brought to the feed lots and stuff themselves to fatten up for 3 or 4 months before slaughter.
So I guess most of their life is OK.

The fact remains we eat a lot of meat.
I would guess we eat so much meat there's probably no practical way to raise and slaughter it in a way everyone would agree is humane.
So if it bothers anyone, you should go to whole foods and pay twice the price for free range, grass fed whatever.
Or don't eat meat.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Take a look at some videos and I'll assure you they're not like Cowshwitz. There are places where they keep animals in a dark room chained up so they can't walk and they get fat, then they get fed a shit load of corn, and when animals eat corn instead of grass they produce a shit load of E. coli, which goes into our food.

Other videos show chickens getting rounded up into a dark room, then a worker smacks their head against the wall, kills them, and plop. There's our food.

Then people say "oh, buy the expensive shit"

If only the poor could do that.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
What you're describing is almost certainly a violation of standing law.
What do you want me to say? I'm not going to defend law breaking farmers.
But Cowschwitz isn't a happy farm....these people are following the law and they're some of the largest beef producers in the world (Harris Ranch)

Image
Image
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It's cows in pens for as far as the eye can see....it's a remarkable sight (and smell).
That's the legal and humane way....if people are uncomfortable with that, then yes, buy the expensive stuff.

Me, I don't really care (except for the cases of true abuse as may be seen in these undercover videos). These animals were bred and raised for slaughter.
As for killing chickens by hitting their head against a wall...my grandma could kill 2 chickens at once, one in each hand and spin them around to wring their necks.
That's not inhumane, it's how you kill a chicken.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending law breakers or animal abusers and I think this anti-whistleblower legislation is bullshit.
I'm just saying the slaughter business is nasty.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Sure it's nasty. But what IS legal is how they're making the meat, what they're putting in the meat, etc. Hell the whole pink slime incident was defended tooth and nail by the food industry and some politicians, namely Romney and Rick Perry. The legislation against the muckrakers trying to video tape these injustices (which by the way happen often since the videos are so plentiful) is crap, as is the way the food industry is legally allowed to make the food.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
I agree this legislation is crap.
But seriously, if you want animals treated very well their whole lives, it's costs a lot more money. That's just economics.
I can appreciate that, I've got a butcher I go to for special occasions and he sells animals that have been treated very well and he can prove it.
Of course that steak of grass fed Waygu who had beer for lunch every other day will cost you $50 lb.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
I think the food industry already makes a shit ton of money so they can afford letting their animals live a life without torture, torture which is animal abuse (I believe).
Author:  Crosscheck [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
You're making a moral argument though.
The guy growing grass fed, organic free-range whatever is just as motivated by profit as the industrial guys.
I'm assuming the industrial guys have much, much smaller margins too since their business model is based on economies of scale.
Saying one of those producers has a right to profit and the other does not just doesn't jive for me.

I think you're looking for consumers who value their meat being produced in a humane way over cost...unfortunately we just don't have that.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
I'll definitely deny one producer right to profit considering the way they profit is by practicing animal abuse which is against the law but since people can't take video evidence of it it goes mostly undocumented. And the way they produce the meat is incredibly unhealthy.
Author:  PatGreen [ Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
cross said everything i would.
Author:  Stuuuuuuu [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
First thing to do would be stop eating fast food and/or ground beef. That meat is produced in such a way that it's only a matter of time before there's a madcow outbreak. And honestly, I think it might take a major health epidemic to get most factory farmers to think about producing their meat in a healthier way. However it's just one more of those fallacies we have about cost vs. quality that will end up biting us in the end. There is no reason to think quality and cost-effectiveness can't go together. It's just like burning coal and gas for our energy because it's "cheaper". But there are hidden costs that will come back to us in the end.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
I totally agree on the ground beef and avoiding *most fast food places (In-N-Out grinds their own beef every day and it's never frozen). Hell, I grind my own at home...nothing like a nice medium rare burger. I'd never order that from a restaurant.
I don't think the cost argument is a fallacy (specifically when talking about beef). Cattle take up a lot of land and land is expensive. Using more traditional methods to move and control a large population of cattle is expensive and labor intensive (as opposed to having them all jammed into pens). The industrial producers also get more lean meat per head from the feed and methods used.
So I don't see how you can argue it wouldn't be more expensive.

Now chicken on the other hand I think could be raised more humanely without much of a cost increase...they just need time outside and a little more space.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
There are already a few cattle ranches that don't jam cattle into pens and keep them fattened with corn to the point they can't move, and they still make money. It comes down to whether or not it's legal, sort of like how businesses can afford not to outsource labor, which is harmful to the US economy and is morally wrong, but they do so for the profit.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Outsourcing labor is not morally wrong...sheesh :roll:

Are there farms where you can source meat from animals that have had a great life? Yes, because there's market demand for that.
Are there farms that treat animals like crap to produce the cheapest product possible? Yes, because there's market demand for that too.

Again, I think this is mainly a consumption issue and not a production issue.
They're doing what we pay them to do.
Author:  BlueandYellow [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Crosscheck wrote:
Outsourcing labor is not morally wrong...sheesh :roll:

Are there farms where you can source meat from animals that have had a great life? Yes, because there's market demand for that.
Are there farms that treat animals like crap to produce the cheapest product possible? Yes, because there's market demand for that too.

Again, I think this is mainly a consumption issue and not a production issue.
They're doing what we pay them to do.


Not from the poor. The poor only have one choice, which is the source of income for OPCION NUMERO DOS. Most people who can't afford or don't have enough time to buy the farm fresh non cancerous meat will go with option number two since they have no other choice. So that market demand is basically the food industry taking advantage of some people's unfortunate situations.
Author:  Crosscheck [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some Evil Stuff
Taking advantage? No, it's not. It just isn't.

Poorer people have less choice of and access to EVERYTHING in an open market.
It's an ugly fact, but it's NOT the fault of the people who make the things they *can afford.
That's like saying poor people can only afford inexpensive cars therefore it's beholden on inexpensive car manufacturers to make less profit so poor people can get a slightly better car.
Try to apply that logic to any other product...Clothes, shoes, computers whatever.
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