nnyfan, dont get me wrong... I dont claim to be any expert, I know what I have been taught. I mean basically my whole life I just kinda threw this aside, but recently ive gotten back into it and trying to get back into it. I dont know all the answers, but i try to do my best to understand it myself and help others understand...

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LETS GO BUFFALO!

1)Care- True, but only to the extent of intimate relations(if they're not part of our group, oh well)
2)Fairness- Driven by selfishness? The real reason we want fairness is so we get a fair shake when it's our turn to be judged. When other people(unfamiliar) get burned, it's a heck of a lot easier.
3)Loyalty- Not one of Jesus favorites. IMO, purely false. Loyalty can't be affirmed, only hoped for.
4)Respect- I think this one trumps them all. The things you place your faith in. Being earned, it's probably the best.
5)Purity- Laughable. Hypocritical by definition, unless your talking about elements. Social norms are in flux, and that's a good thing.

Just some more ideas to discuss.

Verse Of the Day

Romans 10:9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

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LETS GO BUFFALO!

meh, okay. Sure...

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"...they came down into the stands and asked if I knew how to do play by play. I said...No. But. I'll take a shot at it if you want".- Rick Jeanneret

this is a little simple for me, so I read the entire chapter 10. Alone, this verse would have one believe that all one has to do is believe that Jesus is Lord and not be afraid to say it and you will be alright in God's eyes. What the entire chapter is about, though, is bringing this belief, "the Good News" to the Jews and converting them to Christianity. I think that in today's world, this is also translated as witnessing to those that are not Christians, as well as hearing the Good News for the first time and believing in it. The first thing that comes to mind is the pirate that is missing an eye in Pirates of the Caribbean when he first reads the bible and just loves it and becomes good. I think its about accepting Christianity and having it change your life.

My 3 cents! I like the verses you're posting, Rut! Keep 'em coming!

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

Gee, nothing makes us Jews happier than having Christians come calling to give us their "Good News" conversion speech.

My view: Anyone who is out selling people that they need to believe, or not believe, in anything from a religious (or atheist) perspective should really be ashamed of themselves. I mean, if you really believe, or don't believe, in something strongly than feel free to converse about it if others want to have that discussion, but never shove your views down someone else's throat. It's just rude.

As a Jew with my own strong beliefs and opinions, you'll never see me try to impose my belief system on others. You'll only see me get into it if someone is misrepresenting or insulting Judaism, or shoving their beliefs in my face.

It's really about respect. If someone shows me disrespect I'll give it right back. If someone shows me respect I'll reciprocate in kind, and happily have an open conversation about virtually any topic, including religion and politics, without being offended or offending others.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I agree with ETC's thoughts on this. One of my gripes about religions are those that try and make it a point to tell you that your religion is wrong, and theirs is right.

Does this apply to parents and their children too, or is it perfectly acceptable to force your religion onto your children BEFORE they are capable of critical thinking? It seems to me this is where most people get their "beliefs". I don't know too many people who actually chose their religion after being brought up atheist. I'm sure it does happen though.

Daz, it's called family values and tradition.

It's not like the children don't then have their own free will once they are capable of making their own minds up once they are adults.

Sure there are extreme cases where one is "brain-washed" but more often than not, it's a person choice, once one is capable of making that choice.

This thread is starting to get ugly.

My rule of thumb is to stay out of 'Politics and Religious' arguments, but this is one I kinda wanna chime in on.

There is a time and place for religion, and there is a time and place for debate. Sure we can sit here and debate religion all we want, but I've never been in a setting where it doesn't become ugly, and personal attacks aren't made. Maybe I've just had bad luck with it, but I'm just not a fan of religion based debates.

I personally, am a confirmed Catholic, but I am not sure that I even understand what that means. I rarely go to mass, even though my parents, and grandparents go weekly. They ask if I want to go with them, I respond "no thanks" that's the end of it. I'm certain they'd love it if I went more, but they understand I'm an adult, and can't force me to go.

Am I going to bring my children to church when I have them? Absolutely, I personally feel that it's a good place to institute values, and a good basis for responsibility. They'll probably fight me the whole way on it, and that's fine. But if they can take away some good lessons, and values from it, I feel it's absolutely worth it.

All in all, people are going to believe what they ultimately believe, but if a parent wants to send their child to church, and have it be part of their upbringing, then I don't look at it as forcing religion on someone, I look at it as part of that parents choice to raise a child. I mean, I'm sure several of us will have children that we "force" to become sabres fan's by buying them Jerseys, hats, taking them to games, so on and so forth. Is that wrong too?

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"She's like plan C after an 18 pack"

Squanto 7/27/2010

Daz, children are not adults and shouldn't be treated as such. One of the problems in society is that too many adults today treat their children as pals instead of maintaining a parent/ child relationship. A parent imparts their values, rules and ethics upon them in a way that's totally inappropriate for grown adults to do to one another. Religion (or lack of it), therefore, is certainly well within the parents role to teach to their children since it is deeply intertwined with the values and morals they are imparting upon their children.

That's why it's so important to have a consistent message at home. If parents have different values, ethics and religious beliefs they will likely send confusing and conflicting messages to a child that can lead to serious behavioral problems. Ideally, the mother and father need to be on the same page about their outlook on life, and should make that a very strong priority when choosing a spouse.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Right behind the amount of income they make, and the tata's!

Nah, but seriously, I agree with about 99% of what you just said ETC

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"She's like plan C after an 18 pack"

Squanto 7/27/2010

Points taken. I think a lot of the time parents are pushing the religion as fact more than it being a belief system though. No one knows for sure, and that's why it's called faith. I dunno, I(much like Jesus) believe that teaching your kids "facts" which are merely things they "believe" is wrong. Then again, I never said I wanted to try to control how anyone raises their children. This is just my belief.

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"Go out and run 'em."
- Lindy Ruff, 23 Feb. 2007

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Hold my beer and watch this...

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

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"Go out and run 'em."
- Lindy Ruff, 23 Feb. 2007

I only found it a couple days ago...I was waiting for *any* moment to use it

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Oh, jeez. I was reponding to a verse from the bible. The chapter calls it 'the good news' and is saying that those that spread 'the good news' will be saved and those that accept it will also. This was written 2,000 years ago (or so) in an attempt to draw the Jews to believe in Jesus Christ. My take on the chapter should in no way make anyone think that I don't like Jewish people. In fact, I have a profound respect for Jewish people and the distict family values the religion brings. Rut brought a bible verse to the table and I responded with what I thought it meant. It also says in the same chapter, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disappointed." That scripture says 'anyone' because there is no difference between those who are Jews and those who are not.

This bible verse should really not be offensive. Its only about trying to recuit people to Christianity and was written in the early days when it was still new. I'm sure any religious book, be it the book of Mormon, the Quaran, whatever, would have verses that encourage believers to recruit new followers. I don't see what the big deal is.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

As for children going to church. I see nothing wrong with bringing your children to church to teach them your values. When my kids are confirmed, they are adults in the church and can do what they want. Switch churches, don't go at all, whatever. I taught them what I believe and they can choose to like it or not. I will never 'force' my religion on my kids, but I do want them to know what its all about before they make a decision.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

ETC was responding to a verse from the Bible too. He just had a different perspective about it.

No need to get pissed off about it.

Some people are quite happy with their religious views, and don't want to be converted. That was the main thrust of his argument I think.