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SABRESAllTheWay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:42 pm 
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"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives;
and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ."

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:48 pm 
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SABRESAllTheWay wrote:
"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives;
and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ."

Can we also add in there, "Any Senator or Representative at every level of government, if caught lying to the public on any issue, from personal behavior to public policy shall immediately be taken to the nearest public square and hung from the neck until deceased".

Ya, I like it, I like it alot.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:44 pm 
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That's been proposed before...I'd also like a balanced budget amendment.
kthxbye

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
That's been proposed before...I'd also like a balanced budget amendment.
kthxbye


Motion seconded.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
That's been proposed before...I'd also like a balanced budget amendment.
kthxbye


Motion seconded.

That's the only main promise of the contract with America that didn't pass :(
It should have been easy at the time with the low deficits too.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Squanto wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
I'd also like a balanced budget amendment.
kthxbye


Motion seconded.

That's the only main promise of the contract with America that didn't pass :(
It should have been easy at the time with the low deficits too.

A balanced budget amendment is one of those ideas that sounds better than it is in actuality.

Keep in mind that the United States government has been in debt for its entire 234 year history, with the exception of a short period during Andrew Jackson's presidency (the Clinton budget surplus was just that, a budget surplus, not an actual surplus).

Imagine if you ran your household or business according to a balanced budget philosophy. That would mean no borrowing money to buy a car or a house or to expand your business or to tide you over through bad economic times. Everything would have to be paid for on the spot.

Modern capitalism runs on debt and if you take that away our entire economy would crumble. It would be a return to a medieval society.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:49 pm 
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I get the economic considerations of carrying debt, and I don't have a problem with some level of debt. (I think XC would take the opposite stance on that.)

However, individuals and businesses that are responsible with their debt loads tend to do much better than individuals and business that aren't responsible with their debt.

As time goes on, governments seem to be falling more and more into the second category. That needs to be reined in to at least make the debt loads more serviceable, and more effective in moving things forward.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:50 pm 
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uh....doesn't Florida have a mandate to balance every budget?
I'm sure several states do. I don't see why it can't be done on a Federal level.

and BTW, I have no debt and I've never had a car loan...it's not necessary.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
uh....doesn't Florida have a mandate to balance every budget?
I'm sure several states do. I don't see why it can't be done on a Federal level.

and BTW, I have no debt and I've never had a car loan...it's not necessary.

Florida is not a good example for anything political or economic (as you yourself have noted). Our legislature is about to pass a law raiding my retirement fund (along with all the other teachers in the state) in order to balance the budget.

Also, I think you need to check your history on the success of the Contract on America. The provisions requiring that all laws that apply to the rest of the country also apply to Congress (SATW's proposed amendment), a three-fifths majority vote to pass a tax increase, and term limits of all U.S. Congressmen and U.S. Senators are at least three of the ten points (plus your balanced budget amendment) that failed. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb and say (without checking into it) that most of the provisions of the Contract on America never became law.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Florida is not a good example for anything political or economic (as you yourself have noted). Our legislature is about to pass a law raiding my retirement fund (along with all the other teachers in the state) in order to balance the budget.

...and they're doing that in California too...and probably a bunch of other states where there is no balance budget requirement.
Why?
Because They've debt-spent themselves into oblivion.

Some states are contemplating bankruptcy as their only way to get out from under their pension obligations.

Personal debt is bad.
Local debt is bad.
State debt is bad.
Federal Debt is bad.

Period.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:14 pm 
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...and a majority of the contract with America did pass both houses.
Clinton never signed 4 and vetoed 1.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/scorecard.html

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Personal debt is bad.
Local debt is bad.
State debt is bad.
Federal Debt is bad.

Period.

According to Cross, these are just some of the things that are bad:

*Having a mortgage
*Getting a home equity loan or line of credit to fund a home renovation or remodeling job
*Getting student loans to attend college
*Using the bank’s money to invest in real estate
*Borrowing for business expansion or using loans to grow a business
*Buying the Louisiana Purchase
*Funding World War II (or any of America's wars)

I will repeat, Cross, without debt there is no capitalism. There would have been no discovery and settlement of the Americas by Europeans. There would have been no medical or agricultural revolution. There would have been no Industrial Revolution.

We would all still be growing oats for our fuedal lord and hoping that the plague doesn't strike this year.

Really, Cross? I'm the one arguing in favor of capitalism?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:13 pm 
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I've stated many times the only things I consider acceptable reasons to go into personal debt are a mortgage and student loans.
Period.

Do you see me mention business loans? No, you do not.
Business debt is fine.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:15 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2504&p=104433&hilit=debt#p104433

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:21 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Squanto wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
I'd also like a balanced budget amendment.
kthxbye


Motion seconded.

That's the only main promise of the contract with America that didn't pass :(
It should have been easy at the time with the low deficits too.

A balanced budget amendment is one of those ideas that sounds better than it is in actuality.

[color=#80FF00]Keep in mind that the United States government has been in debt for its entire 234 year history
, with the exception of a short period during Andrew Jackson's presidency (the Clinton budget surplus was just that, a budget surplus, not an actual surplus).

Imagine if you ran your household or business according to a balanced budget philosophy. That would mean no borrowing money to buy a car or a house or to expand your business or to tide you over through bad economic times. Everything would have to be paid for on the spot.

Modern capitalism runs on debt and if you take that away our entire economy would crumble. It would be a return to a medieval society.[/color]

This statement is false. In actuality, the program of Assumption helped pay off the newly formed nations debt (Hamilton in point of fact). However, it most be noted with a keen eye that Jefferson in actuality won this arguement as Washington (by far one of the top 5 minds of the founders with both organizational and visionary skills) sided with him on the creation of a central bank. If you follow the timeline precisely, you will see that outside of the Louisana Purchase and the Purchase of Alaska (Sewards Folly) the U.S. never accumulated debt with the absence of a nationalized or central bank. As a matter of fact, and you can go to the Library of Congress to confirm (Where I did my report on this out of, with all records in hand) You will find that inflationary rates and stabilized coin or printed money was at its most stable without a central bank or debt.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:22 pm 
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Ty, sometimes I want to hug you.

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:26 pm 
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NYIntensity wrote:
Ty, sometimes I want to hug you.

:D Well thank you.

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE! ;)

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Zilla,

I must also state an ideology difference here, and it comes down to simply what a current day great man states over and over again, that would be Ron Paul a congressman from Texas. He correctly states that it is the idea behind which the citizens believe what the role of government ought to be based on the Constitution as it is written.

I will subscribe to this myself based only on the fact that it is indeed NOT a living document as many may suggest or believe, it is however molded by the times with which we live in. Thats not a living document because quite simply, it is up to the people and their representatives that have the ability to mold the document. The document does not, however, have the ability to mold itself. In short, people (citizens through their representatives) have to do the work, they (we the people) are the living testiment, not document with which this is achieved.

With that being an actual fact, not some political pundits predetermined sound byte, it must be noted that the document can be amended, this is point of fact, the case. It was never intended, and never should have been utilized, to push agenda's from one group/political party/entity (corporations) as to give them any input that the larger body of citizens of the nation should not have a chance to vote on themselves. This is where corruption comes in.

But getting back to the point of fact on debt in so far as the nation goes, I can tell you outright, through first hand experience, some of which I have shared briefly with a few here in private communications, that the system is not what you preceive it to be at all, and that goes for both large political entities currently in play. They utilize debt without recourse from the nations citizens, dooming the larger body of people in the country that do not wish to leave these debt situations to future generations. There are more than numerous examples of why this is doomed to fail, not the least of which is the governments inability to put any type of performance garuantee on the nation as a whole financially.

In short, its a great big ponzi scheme, with the central bank (also known as the Federal Reserve) in collusion with the executive and legislative branches of government (through corruption of the peoples representatives) as the criminals that keep attempting to prop this up. It should also be noted, it has not in the past up to this very day, ever succeeded to work. It is inherintly built to fail, the reasons why of which we will not debate here today, but lets call a spade a spade as we are both fond of saying.

The balanced budget amendment is the only defense against this system, and the personal courage (political courage has nothing to do with it, right is right and wrong is wrong) of the representatives to support such a measure is usurped by the national bank (Federal Reserve) every single time. This is not some Zietgeist post, it is the truth of the matter, these are the facts of the case, and understand this, they are not disputed.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:07 pm 
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slesh wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
A balanced budget amendment is one of those ideas that sounds better than it is in actuality.

Keep in mind that the United States government has been in debt for its entire 234 year history, with the exception of a short period during Andrew Jackson's presidency (the Clinton budget surplus was just that, a budget surplus, not an actual surplus).

This statement is false.

Ah, if simply SAYING something made it true you would be quite the historian, slesh. Unfortunately, that is not the case and you don't know what you are talking about.

The United States was born with $75,463,476.52 of debt and continued to accumulate debt for the next 45 years. Hamilton's assumption of the state debt INCREASED the national debt (the federal government took on the debt of the states as a way to bind the country closer together - this deal was worked out with Jefferson and Madison in exchange for locating the nation's capital in northern Virginia, i.e. Washington, D.C.).

As I said, Andrew Jackson is the only president in U.S. history to pay off the national debt (he actually got it down to $33,000 - close enough). This didn't last long, however, as the Panic of 1837 sent it skyrocketing again and we have been with debt ever since. Somehow we have managed to survive and prosper without a balanced budget amendment.

You can verify this with the U.S. treasury at

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/repo ... stdebt.htm

Your statement about the historic stability of the nation's currency is sheer silliness (as is your diatribe about Ron Paul, who seems like a sweet, sincere old man, but is a nutjob when it comes to economics). The U.S. dollar wasn't even established as the nation's sole currency until the Civil War.

I do this for a living, slesh, so check your facts before you call me a liar.

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Assumption was not solely based on strengthening the Federal Government of the newly formed nation. Those debts were individual to the Revolutionary War and the costs to each colony, and if you did this for a living you would know good and well that Assumption, did give this nation an outstanding credit rating globally but the central bank concept is a fail across the board.

And if you did this for a living, you would also know that everything I stated was the truth and nothing but.
Here, here is just some of the information pretty much packaged up for you.

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/debt_deficit_history

Now, the reason I stated it was false, not that you lied, but that it was not being honest with the information in its full form, you can clearly see where interest comes into play. But, like I stated in my previous post, lets leave this for another day.

Ah, yes, you didn't think I looked at numbers like these all day? I'll tell ya what, I deal with financials all day, and deal with people you couldn't begin to imagine who they are and what role they play in the global economy. We also joust on this issue from time to time, political ideology is a moot point in those discussions and they are from both sides of the isle, and true to form, they also, all, every single one of them, happen to agree, that a balanced budget amendment, would indeed, suffice it to say, correct the current problem.

But its easier just to state that it cannot work and keep the status quo. I think your real failure to understand this is in the true understanding of the programs that would not exist with a balanced budget amendment "COMBINED" with a common sense tax policy. But once again, I digress, you cannot have one without the other, hence, once again, my comment that your statement that its not actual is false.

We could go into examples, such as, the interest accured and time parameters for such, also known as "Servicable Debt Association", in which this interest if beyond the cost of the principal from its inception. You know it as something else.

Here, I'll give you a simplistic example of this, the national defecit runs and you accumulate the national debt, but, if over 50% of this is interest (which it is annually) then some entity is accuring that money, who? The Federal Reserve, thats who.

It really is quite simple, if you put a balanced budget amendment into implementation, you force the government to coin its own money, thereby releasing it from those massive interest payments.
Now, who is going to loan the banks money without a central bank? Well, this is where obviously you and I differ, I believe in free market principals, let the markets set the rate of interest. The only regulation needed is that of fair treatment, i.e. no gouging.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, let me give you a taste of what I deal with almost daily, they are called trading platforms. I am a utility scale renewable energy project EPC, or development firm. I watch Billions of dollars being made every day for projects. None of them, not one, institutional or private equity lenders, use the interest system in play from the FED. As a matter of fact, they use a market driven system.

You'd be quite surprised at the amount of money moving, you think you have a handle on it, you have no clue as to just how much, and I only look at it from the developers side. I do lunch, have meetings, speak with investors every single day. Citigroup, BofA, Myrill, Pickens, Saudi Royal Family, Kuwaiti R.F., Soverign Wealth Funds, Hedge Funds, New York State Pension Fund and the list goes on. I deal with these people all day long and every single one of us, down to a man or woman that joust on this completely understand the methodology behind what a balanced budget amendment would encompass.

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