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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:58 pm 
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http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... etter.html

76 Senators and 333 Representatives realize even if you are a secret Muslim you should still be cordial to our allies.

/that was sarcasm
//the letters are not

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:28 am 
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I am a huge supporter of Israel and believe that throughout the past 60 years the major blame for the lack of peace in the Middle East is because of the Arabs and Palestinians.

However, the current roadblock to peace can be laid right at the doorstep of Israel. They have built their little wall and have given up on the entire peace process.

We have given Israel over $100 billion in aid since their inception and they turned around and slapped vice president Biden in the face on his last trip there. We give that country $7 million A DAY in military aid ($3 billion a year in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget). This works out to writing each and every Israeli a $500 check, every year.

Is this to go on indefinitely?

Good for Obama for telling Israel to get off their asses and start working toward a genuine peace. Leadership is about doing what is right, not necessarily what is popular. Those 409 congresspeople are 409 folks thinking about fundraising, not peace in the Middle East.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:40 am 
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Exactly the response I expected.
Israel shouldn't build walls because suicide bombers really just need a hug.

Syria is now selling scud missiles directly to Hezbollah.
Iran is practically sitting on a nuke right now and have stated their intentions over the course of a decade.

What Obama has done is this:
Ask the Israelis to do something they were never going to do (besides the settlement thing, at one point he suggested splitting Jerusalem in two).
Snub their PM 3 times in one visit.
Keep selling them arms and delivering aid.

Awesome strategy, he must know something I don't.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:26 pm 
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So, Cross, you favor socialist gifts to a foreign country, but oppose it when the money is for our own folks.

Riiiight.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:40 pm 
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No, I favor treating our friends like friends.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:49 pm 
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When my friends are being assholes, I tell them they're being assholes.
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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
When my friends are being assholes, I tell them they're being assholes.

There is a daily mounting threat against Israel, they move to protect themselves.
I assume we're all fine with this.

Building settlements on their own land is "being an asshole" now?

If you asked your friend to stop wearing clothes for a day and he didn't comply is that being an asshole?

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:03 pm 
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I don't have problem with Israel defending itself against it's threats.

I do have a problem when they intentionally do things to piss off the Palestinians, and they do that. The Palestinians aren't saints in this thing either, and I understand that. All I'm saying is that Israel does do shit to antagonize the Palestinians, and just because they're strong allies of ours, that doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them they're being douchy when they are.

I do want to point out that the settlements that you're talking about aren't being build on Israeli land. East Jerusalem, and all of the West Bank for that matter, is disputed territory, and has been since the 60s.
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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
All I'm saying is that Israel does do shit to antagonize the Palestinians, and just because they're strong allies of ours, that doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them they're being douchy when they are.

And this has changed from the last 20 or so years how?

The administration is going out on its own here...our friends don't agree and the legislature doesn't agree.

Obama the unilateralist ;)

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Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:28 pm 
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There has barely been any agreement at all on anything relating to Israel, since, well, forever. :)
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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
No, I favor treating our friends like friends.

I think the $3 billion we give them every year should be a big enough Valentines card to reassure them that we are still friends.

However, there is a problem with our friends lately. They appear to have come to the conclusion that they can live with the status quo. Since they built the West Bank barrier suicide attacks have indeed decreased. I'm not criticizing Israel's right to protect themselves. However, it would appear that the wall has eliminated their motive for reaching a lasting agreement with the Palestinians. This isn't just a liberal, Democratic opinion. President George W. Bush said, "I think the wall is a problem...It is very difficult to develop confidence between the Palestinians and Israel with a wall snaking through the West Bank."

By the way, it was then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who went to Jerusalem in 2008 and criticized Israel's increased settlement construction in the West Bank as detrimental to the peace process. She said a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians was a “strategic interest” of the United States, and went on to add (concerning the experience of Palestinians in occupied territory), “The prolonged experience of deprivation and humiliation can radicalize even normal people.”


Here is the larger problem, Cross. Our good friends, the Israelis, endanger American lives by dragging their feet on peace with the Palestinians. The lack of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and the perception that the U.S. is unable to stand up to Israel, undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Obama recognizes that when he talks about how the failure of the peace process costs Americans in "blood and treasure."

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Our good friends, the Israelis, endanger American lives by dragging their feet on peace with the Palestinians.

Because if it weren't for those dastardly Israelis, the Palestinians would sign a peace accord this very instant.

Give me a break.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Our good friends, the Israelis, endanger American lives by dragging their feet on peace with the Palestinians.

Because if it weren't for those dastardly Israelis, the Palestinians would sign a peace accord this very instant.

Give me a break.

Cross, it used to be that I could have a political discussion with you, but now everything is black and white, good and evil.

Did I say the Israelis were dastardly? Did I not say that for most of the past 60 years it has been the Arabs who have been the roadblock to peace? Is it not possible to offer any criticism of Israel now?

Do you no longer see nuance in the world or has the election of Obama resulted in you seeing only two sides to every issue?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Cross, it used to be that I could have a political discussion with you, but now everything is black and white, good and evil.

Did I say the Israelis were dastardly? Did I not say that for most of the past 60 years it has been the Arabs who have been the roadblock to peace? Is it not possible to offer any criticism of Israel now?

Do you no longer see nuance in the world or has the election of Obama resulted in you seeing only two sides to every issue?

Sure the situation is nuanced, but I consider one side of this argument morally superior and justified and I'm guessing you don't.

Am I calling the Israelis saints?
Of course not, but they're not the real problem with the situation over there.

Obama didn't change my stance on that...but he is changing how my voice is represented.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Cross, it used to be that I could have a political discussion with you, but now everything is black and white, good and evil.

Did I say the Israelis were dastardly? Did I not say that for most of the past 60 years it has been the Arabs who have been the roadblock to peace? Is it not possible to offer any criticism of Israel now?

Do you no longer see nuance in the world or has the election of Obama resulted in you seeing only two sides to every issue?

Sure the situation is nuanced, but I consider one side of this argument morally superior and justified and I'm guessing you don't.

Am I calling the Israelis saints?
Of course not, but they're not the real problem with the situation over there.

Obama didn't change my stance on that...but he is changing how my voice is represented.

Yes, I do consider the Israelis the morally superior side, although they have done some pretty damn immoral things, as well. Right now, though, Israel is dragging their feet on the peace process, and since we are paying the band I figure we have the right to call the tune. Besides, this is not about moral superiority, it is about American self-interest and the lives of American soldiers. Defuse the Israeli-Palestinian issue and you take a lot of pressure of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel isn't solely responsible for peace in the Middle East, but they do have to make an effort to work toward it and that is something they are not doing right now.

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