A few days into the debate..

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/2 ... -bill.html

What's your opinion?

Are you ferrets, thinking anyone who doesn't look like you is bad?, or is profiling racist? Somewhere in between?

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When I was a boy I spoke as a boy, I understood as a boy, and I thought as a boy; when I became a man I took that boy outside and shot him.

I think it's absurd that anyone disagrees with a law that "makes it ILLEGAL to be in the country ILLEGALLY"

But then again, I also think it absurd we even need to make a law that STATES that this is a law, now we will enforce the LAW......Good God what has happened to this country? Honestly....

Its like "its illegal to drive you're car drunk, if you're drunk and driving your car..." Well no fuckin shit!

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"I can't really hear what Jeremy says, because I got my two Stanley Cup Rings plugging my ears...." -Patrick Roy in reference to Jeremy Roenick's trash talking

The "new" law simply reaffirms the plain letter of the federal law which isn't enforced.

I love immigrants, come from immigrants, am married to immigrants.

Sign the book on the way in or fuck you.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

amen

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Check out my website: http://www.artistzero.com

"That wasn't very nice...I do believe you killed my hat."

Driver of the FIRE LINDY RUFF Bandwagon since 2008.

Parts of the law I have no problem with.

This clause is troubling.



Basically, any Arizona resident can sue their local law enforcement agency if they feel like that agency isn't 'fully cooperating' with federal immigration law. I think private citizens should be watchdogs, but only to a point. It should not be the function of citizens to interpret a law and file suit if they don't like how a law is being implemented. This could create a flood of frivolous suits.



Sounds benign, but it just doesn't smell right. There has already been a documented case where a natural born US citizen of Mexican descent was stopped, and provided his Arizona issued commercial driver's license to the officer. He was detained until his wife drove 2 hours to retrieve his (and hers) birth certificates proving they were both born in Fresno, CA.

This is a complete and utter abuse of the law, and it's not even in effect yet.

I don't have any problem with the cops checking on people that are obviously illegals, or have a reasonable suspicion that they could be. Honestly they should have been doing that already. However, detaining US citizens because they don't have the appropriate paperwork, or even demanding that they produce MORE paperwork than is legally required is a slippery slope. That's my biggest problem with this.

What's was preventing them from suing before this law?
Do you think people are actually reading this thing and will do that? I don't.


Sorry...screw them.
I was detained at the Lewiston-Queenston bridge for 2.5 hours because my wife and mother-in-law were honest and answered "China" and "Hong Kong" when they asked for place of birth.
Both are US citizens but my wife didn't have her passport on her and apparently the passport database was written by a 13 year old in DB2.
The only excuse / explanation we were given was "since 9/11 things are different".
This was before the passport requirement even went into effect.

Certain groups will receive extra scrutiny when in contact with governmental officials. Would you rather we let Mohamed get on that plane while strip searching grandma because it's the PC thing to do?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

thats not really the crux of it

Situation A: pablo martinez has been a legal citizen all his life. His parents moved here and got papers etc. Pablos driving his car to work and has forgot his wallet. A police officer can pull him over on simple suspicion, and if pablo cannot produce his papers at any given point he's sent to mexico.

I see that as too harsh

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When I was a boy I spoke as a boy, I understood as a boy, and I thought as a boy; when I became a man I took that boy outside and shot him.

Sorry, you're dead wrong.

Racial profiling is explicitly forbidden in the txt of the law.

In your example Pablo would first have to commit an infraction to get pulled over.
And are you seriously suggesting an American citizen would be deported?
Seriously?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Racial profiling has been illegal for years, yet I don't think you could deny that it happens. A lot. An officer CAN in fact pull you over for simple suspicion. It used to be that they'd say you were swerving, or they thought your registration was out of date. Now, they have a legal mandate to make sure EVERYONE in AZ is actually a citizen, so by that definition anyone can be pulled over or stopped at any time to verify their citizenship status.

Let's tweak Pants' example.

Pablo Martinez, a natural born US citizen, is driving his large commercial truck. He pulls into a weigh station, and an officer there decides to prove his immigration status. Pablo provides his Arizona issues CDL, and his SSN. The officer doesn't consider that enough proof, handcuffs Pablo, and turns him over to INS. Pablo calls his wife, who has to drive to their home and retrieve their birth certificates to prove their citizenship. After making that trip, Pablo is released.

Pablo committed no crime. Pablo was following the laws of the state of Arizona, had Arizona provided identification (which he must have proved he was a citizen to get), and provided addition proof of citizenship by providing his SSN, which law enforcement can use to additionally verify citizenship. Even with all this, he was detained for hours until his wife could provide a birth certificate.

I use this example because it's already happened.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

My problem is that legal, US citizens can now be stopped anywhere INSIDE the state of AZ, and be forced to provide proof of citizenship for no other reason than because the cop felt like stopping them.

I think that your LQ bridge example is a bit different because you guys were entering the country, not already inside the country. Doesn't excuse the fact that they should have been able to look your mom and wife up in a reasonable time, but that's pretty common. I'm about as white bread as you can get and I have gotten grief at the border many times.

I think if you got detained at the CA/Nevada border and detained for 2 hours for the same reasons you'd be REALLY pissed off about it.

A lot of bad stuff happens because humans are assholes.
But we're talking about a law.
This specific law has language forbidding racial profiling.

Saying it's going to happen anyway doesn't reflect on this law at all.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I consider myself pretty liberal, and I have to say...who f-ing cares? Guess what, if you're hispanic, and you live in arizona, you have to deal with more scrutiny regarding your citizenship than you previously have had to. Carry your papers.

People around me are acting like these are witch-hunts, or even full on genetic cleansing. This is heightened scrutiny of a certain sector of the population which has a higher percentage of illegal citizenship status. Just like arabic looking people probably have to deal with a lot more shit when flying.

If there is a rash of crimes being committed in north carolina by mid-thirties, vaguely jewish looking men over 6 feet tall, i'll expect some added scrutiny, and i'll do whats necessary to clear myself with the authority responsible for checking people out. I have a feeling all the hysteria is people assuming we'll have nazi-esque stormtroopers and the SS knocking on peoples doors hauling them away in the middle of the night, which seems really far fetched and kind of retarded to me. Perhaps i'm wrong, but I think everyone is way overreacting.

Holy overexaggeration Batman....

1st. Driving without your license on you is ILLEGAL in all 50 states.

2nd. If he can produce said papers (ie he's just left them at home/work/school/etc) they are not going to deport the guy. Not to mention that on that cops laptop or in the datasbase he calls in to, there is a listing of everyone with a license so if "Pablo" is in fact a licensed driver, he will simply be ticketed for not having his license and be on his merry way.

3rd. People like you are taking this way too far. Nobody is deporting LEGAL citizens. They are deporting ILLEGAL ALIENS. They're not going to go rounding up every dark skinned person in Arizona and ship them over the border. Put your ACLU card away for a minute and consider the fact that this law is simply stating the fact they Arizona intends simply to enforce and FEDERAL law already on the books that is not being used properly.

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"I can't really hear what Jeremy says, because I got my two Stanley Cup Rings plugging my ears...." -Patrick Roy in reference to Jeremy Roenick's trash talking

The deportation assuming is a bit of an overreach.

However, US citizens are going to be detained (and have already been detained) because a police officer didn't accept the identification he/she SHOULD accept as proof of citizenship. This is a dangerous precedent.

Yeah pretty much...especially when you consider the reality of what this is.

- There's a Federal law that says you can't be here illegally and can be arrested and deported if you're caught.
- The Feds have spent the last 30 years conveniently ignoring said law.
- Now that illegal immigration has brought debt, violence, drugs, gangs and human smuggling Az. said enough of this shit.

So Arizona made a law just like the Federal law for Az. police to enforce because the Feds won't.

Where's the controversy?
An existing law is now being enforced...yay.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I think a lot of people are also assuming Arizona cops are white bread racists out to get the Mexicans but in reality, I'd wager 1/2 their police force is Hispanic.

Leftist fear mongering is what this is.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Okay the state of AZ passed this law, but will it hold up in court? Immigration is a federal matter, so doesn't that mean state governments are not allowed to get involved? After all, Arizona can't declare war on Mexico, for example.

Next, is it not illegal per the Constitution to demand a citizen to prove identity when that citizen has committed no crime? If so, then AZ cops can only ask non-citizens to identify themselves. If they ask a citizen, that citizen could then sue the state.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

From what I understand, they'll be talking to the same amount of people as before, ie, people who have, or they suspect have broken some law. Not out in the streets stopping random people and demanding proof of citizenship, so since they're already 'dealing' with the person because that person did something which triggered the police to ask them for identification, they would be committing no crime under your example.

Imigration is a Federal matter but Az. isn't granting citizenship here...they're enforcing laws...Federal laws...already on the books.
Are you suggesting what they're doing is unconstitutional?
If so, let me hear the argument.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I'm not really suggesting anything. Law is not my forte. I'm pretty much just bringing up what I heard Jeffrey Toobin say on CNN this morning to see what the reaction would be.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

If that's how they are approaching this, then I agree. I guess my understanding was that this law would allow law enforcement to demand proof of citizenship if they had reasonable cause to suspect illegal status. So then cops could do this to anyone with an accent.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson