i just read that they wont have the spill fixed till august at best, and they will simply try to contain the spill. also, the last ditch effort they made? they tried to stuff, and im serious about this, debris and GOLF BALLS in the hole.













ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?????????

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Haven't the russians been detonating bombs over wells like this for years? (As I understand it, the bomb creates tons of pressure and crumples the pipe, similar to an anti-submarine depth charge).

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I gave facts to back up my assertion and you gave nothing to back up yours.
Evidence please.
We were buying as much oil as we wanted before the war. How did the war enhance our ability to get oil from Iraq?


That technique is for well fires above ground.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Oh. Thanks for that ^.^

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Just because the war didn't enhance the ability to get oil, doesn't mean there weren't any motives for that. The war didn't work out as they planned. It should have been a short intervention and government cleaning, but it wasn't, therefore nobody can say what they had expected.

I think it's a neverending discussion because right now every side can show facts and citations which doesn't provide any proof. It's a matter of what you believe.
I'll cite the following, but as I said it doesn't prove anything

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Facts? Your facts don't support what you call a logical conclusion that we didn't go in for oil. I could list the calorie count for a Big Mac if you just want random facts. Oil production is down in Iraq because their whole country is fucked, which our leaders didn't think would happen. We were sold on this being a quick, painless takeover and amazingly it wasn't. Your facts support a major screw up, not our government's intentions.

On a side note, most of my friends have served in Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait or Afghanistan (or are there now) and with the exception of one Glenn Beck cheer leader they all are very serious when they say that no one wants us there and that it pisses them off to no end that our men and women in uniform are risking their lives for oil. That's not a fact exactly but it sure is a widely spread feeling amongst our troops.

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This has been asserted multiple times.
Where are you getting this notion from?
Certainly no one thought it would be as bad as it has been, but where are you getting the idea that our military leaders were under the assumption it would be a cakewalk?
Under what circumstance would starting a war make the oil fields more stable?

Of the 5 friends and family members I have that have been to Iraq at least once, none of them share that opinion.
But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence isn't it?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

When our leaders said things to the tune that we will be greeted as liberators, that it will be a short conflict and that the American taxpayer won't feel more than a 1.7 billion dollar burden then yes I draw the conclusion that they believed this war would be a cake walk when compared to the cluster fuck we have now. But because you need facts here ya go. There is way more to post but I'm off to a BBQ and this isn't an accredited course.

Let's see, the original estimate was that this war would cost 50-60 billion dollars and we're at about 725 billion right now:
http://costofwar.com/
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/CNN_P ... _1102.html

Here is a nice little article about Bush and 'Miscalculations" in Iraq: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0827-22.htm

Here's Rumsfeld saying it won't be a long war:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... 848-8227r/

Here's a timeline of how the war has been going from start to present:
http://thinkprogress.org/iraq-timeline/

Everyone from Bush to Colin Powell thought we'd be greeted as liberators and there would be a party thrown for us once we nabbed Saddam. They flat out said that the people wanted Saddam out and as soon as we did they would line up like ducks for their Democracy Kool Aid.

"I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators. I've talked with a lot of Iraqis in the last several months myself, had them to the White House. The president and I have met with them, various groups and individuals, people who have devoted their lives from the outside to trying to change things inside Iraq. And like Kanan Makiya who's a professor at Brandeis, but an Iraqi, he's written great books about the subject, knows the country intimately, and is a part of the democratic opposition and resistance. The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that." (Cheney, Meet the Press, 3/16/03)

"Think of the faces in Afghanistan when the people were liberated, when they moved out in the streets and they started singing and flying kites and women went to school and people were able to function and other countries were able to start interacting with them. That's what would happen in Iraq."(Rumsfeld; Media Roundtable, 9/13/02)

"I think the Iraqi people are crying out for liberation and freedom. And they've been denied it. They've been living in fear for a very long time. They're a very industrious people, and they have an awful lot to contribute to their own society as well as to the world, and they've been denied that chance to do so...I think the Iraqi people would welcome freedom with jubilation." (Andrew Card, Fox News Sunday, 1/26/03)

More of them here: http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new ... -108-2-211

If this picture doesn't say it all in regards to Bush and his boys thinking this was a cake walk then I don't know what does.

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Never said everyone. Fact is that I have lived on military bases for 12 years, my friends are all military, my wife is ADAF, I have friends who have been killed or wounded in Iraq, my wife has been there 3 times, I was in inpatient care in Landstuhl with hundreds of soldiers who were wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan, I counseled PTS soldiers and airmen while I was an ADAF Mental Health Tech, I worked in a Belgium port where munitions were being transferred to the middle east and lived in a small camp with military members from all US branches as well as British, Canadian and NATO forces, and from all of that experience I see a wide spread belief amongst military members that this war was started on shady motives. Not saying your 5 friends and family members aren't entitled to believe what they believe but in my experience their opinion isn't as wide spread as you may think, as anecdotal as my evidence may be.

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In all honesty, though, how many military members do you know that really give a big enough damn to pay attention to the grand scheme of things? The majority of troops get and believe the information they receive from their superiors. If their leadership believes that the war was started for oil, they do too.

Being in Fallujah, my unit received a mixed welcome. I say mixed because we did a lot of good, but I was there when the convoy of female searchers was blown up - it was about a half mile from my base. We were attacked a LOT, but in comparison, we had many more supporters than opponents.

When we were in Afghanistan (my unit was in Tarin Kowt), we were very well received - every village we went through wanted us to be there, and enjoyed our support. We built schools, and soccer fields, dug wells, and gained information on where the Taliban was.

Those two battlefields set aside, I don't think a democracy will EVER work in Iraq - not with the extremism that is prevalent in their country. The Sunni vs Shiite dilemma will never end, IMO, and shy of splitting the country in two, a dictator is pretty much what the doctor orders.

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It started as: "we're going in to Afganastan to Kill Bin Ladin and all those responsible".

Then it went to: "we're pretty sure Iraq might have WMDs so we are going to invade, we know that's not part of the world policy for peace that we pretty much started but it's cool anyways, right?".

Then it became: "while we're here we are going to liberate these poor people, you know, so that the terrorists attack HERE instead of in America.".

When they failed to get Bin Laden they should have pulled out. Then we could have started the green revolution to conserve fossil fuel and simply stopped trading at all with that entire area. Afganastan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and so on. Basically telling all of them to go fuck themselves, see how they enjoy not having any of our money at all. Maybe they kill Bin Laden for us, to make amends.

All I know is that war is the last thing I would have tried, not the first thing. But that's what happens when you got the Christ Cowboy in office looking to make a name for himself at our expense.

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"I love that you know how to do that." Cheryl/Carol/Crystal

"And I love that I have an erection that doesn't involve homeless people." Kreiger

It's a bit more than oil. Oil is big, yes, but the global economy is bigger. While oil is a huge part of that, where do you think your fresh produce come from in the winter? Other countries. Where do most of the raw mined materials come from for a lot of the products we use or create? The middle east.

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that oil spill sure is a disaster. killing all the animals and ruining the ecosystem and stuff. four ways to stop the fill have failed already, hurricane season is upon the southeast, meaning it will rain oil and wind will push it deeper into the transitional ecosystems along the borders.

Valiant effort to get the thread back on track

This is definitely a disaster; I'll be waiting with bated breath for the next "fix".

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He never quantified "long" and that was in 2006...it was already a long war at that point.

We were, in fact, greeted as liberators before the insurgency sprouted up.
Power vacuums tend to generate those sort of things.


While that sign was friggin stupid, it was accurate.
The crew of the USS Abraham Lincoln had successfully completed their mission. That's what the sign was for.
But it applies to the greater war as well because conventional warfare and major combat operations ended in 2003.

Whatever, we're not going to convince each other, but I've seen nothing presented that ties the motivations for or the execution of the war with the desire to take or secure oil supplies.
It has, in fact had the opposite effect and anyone could have predicted that.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

but yeah...we may be looking at 2.5 months of unabated oil flowing into the gulf....
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3019914420100530

They're trying to get a clean cut on the pipe so they can install a siphon, if that doesn't work, they're engineering another dome thing that won't be ready for another week and if that fails, no relief well until August.

If any city didn't need a economic and environmental kick in the junk it was New Orleans.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

So why can't they prep an area around the leak and bolt the dome down (leaving a valve or pipe open so there won't be a pressure issue while attaching the bastard to the ground), and then, once it's sealed in place, close the valve? Fuck trying to continue harvesting oil (As the last "containment dome" did), and just fucking stop the flow.

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rob van winkle said it best

im asking everyone to put their political opinions aside. this isnt about this. there is oil spewing to to the gulf and the water is being poisoned every second. point the fingers elsewhere.

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Oh really now?

This is the wrong thread for an Iraq dispute and I'm pulling my politics out of the thread so it can get back on topic.

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