They "force" by doing exactly what NY said, by threatening to hire someone else who will do what they ask if an employee doesn't.

And this did end up in a giant lawsuit:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16809248/

But you know as well as I do that a lawsuit takes years and years. How many people working for minimum wage do you think are willing to fight the system when they're living paycheck to paycheck and know it could take years? Honestly, do you think if it meant possibly losing your job and not putting food on the table for your kids that you would jump at the chance to accuse your employer who just happens to be the most powerful business in your town?

North Carolina is a right to work state, and we (police) don't get paid OT unless it's a big city sponsored event that calls for all officers to be available, or we have a court subpeona on an off day. Supervisors are told to make officers take time off to even their hours out before the end of the pay period, so that we can't earn OT. They do it every time and it's totally legal in a right to work state. I won't bother getting into the years that my city broke FLSA laws. It ended after a long fight by our police officers association (which I was very active in), and an out of court settlement once the city saw how badly they were going to have their ass handed to them. We didn't even have collective bargaining power, but the city was so wrong it didn't matter.

Again, I don't like big union BS, but they are often a necessary evil to counter the abuses of employers, private and public.

I worked for a private Christian School, and I'll tell you that it was one of the best schools I've ever been in. I didn't explore their science curriculum, but I'm sure it skipped evolution. Other than that; however, it was fantastic. They had smartboards in almost every classroom. The teachers would actually upload the day's work from the smartboard onto their own pages, so if a student had a question that night, they could review the lesson over and over if necessary. I installed a campus-wide wireless network that was configured to print to printers based on your geographic location. They didn't have budget issues; the students weren't tied down by politics when it came to fund raising. Car washes, bake sales, etc, etc. It was a very wholesome experience, IMO.

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Sued and won compensation under the law and a union was nowhere to be found.
Thanks for proving my point.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Nope. A bit over 2000 or so, I'd have to look at the last stuff I got from them.

I don't doubt any of that at all, but I'm not talking about technology.

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mechaphil

And thanks for totally ignoring mine and quoting me out of context.

I'm just saying; those kids were well adjusted and well educated. Something like 93% of the students there go on to (and subsequently graduate from) college. That stat speaks for itself.

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Huh? Sad, dour??? I'm telling it like it is, and I don't have to exaggerate the crap I saw and dealth with. As a police officer - or the type of person that becomes a police officer - it's not sad and dour, it's just the way it is and I get to see it up close on a regular basis. I would argue that some people have their heads in the clouds to not have a concern about it.

Teachers, otoh, don't have that same outlook, and probably suffer much more stress than I ever would, because they never get the upper hand. They have to put up with the crap, watch principals put the thug right back in class because he doesn't want his stats to look bad to the school board. Then the teachers catch all the flak over test scores, which are bad because they have to let all the thugs that never paid attention take the test and bring the average down.

They're the ones that should be sad and dour, and they are quite often. Don't try to make me out like some debbie downer though. I'm simply detailing what happens, and I didn't even get specific with the worst incidents.

But who checks the unions when they abuse their power to basically extort the employer?

Why should a college educated person with advanced technical skills make the same amount of money as a guy who sits in a truck and WATCHES someone else mow a lawn simply because that guy has union representation?

That's a completely true scenario BTW. I worked for the Town of Lewiston Parks Department right out of high school for a summer. Had I stayed there, not went to college, and did grunt work for a time, I would have been a supervisor making the same amount of money I do now 5 years ago.

Did I say any of that was right? It's not, and if everyone in this country were like me there wouldn't be employer abuses and there wouldn't be power/money hungry unions. There's no "right" about any of that crap...only a swaying balance of bad against bad.

They're still all of one mind. Where is the diversity or individuality (and, by diversity, I don't mean minority students) at a school that enforces one dogma?

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mechaphil

I didn't ignore your reasoning at all, I just don't think it's relevant to what we're discussing.
Because some people live paycheck to paycheck and may be afraid of retribution from their employer are not valid reasons Walmart workers need a union.

You see, it's illegal to make someone work without compensation and it's illegal to use the threat of termination to force them to do so.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

This goes to the debate about what work is "important". I hate the fact that we often look at managerial positions as more important than "grunt work" which is often the work that HAS to be done anyway. I hate that the dishwasher in a restaurant makes minimum wage when his/her job is just as important as anyone else's, who gets paid much more. You can't blame pay variations on unions alone.

It is entirely relevant. The fact that something is illegal doesn't stop it from happening. Employees that belong to a union will get immediate (or at least much quicker) redress to their problems than employees who have to take their employers to court. PLUS, there's a much better chance that employers will never try to use illegal work practices against union members in the first place. My point couldn't be more relevant.

I disagree, sorry.
Yeah, some people may be screwed in the short term, but that doesn't necessitate the formation of a union at all.
If a company is abusing its workers in an unlawful way it will be stopped. It will be corrected.

The only unprotected workers in modern day America are illegal immigrants.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Ya know what's blowing my mind right now? Yoda hasn't posted in forever, comes in to say one thing, and suddenly it's the hottest topic of the day. Kudos to that man.

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mechaphil

I can't argue with that; however, I would definitely enjoy the peace of mind knowing that the chances are slim to none that my kid is going to get involved in drugs or violence outside a fistfight, all while still getting a pretty damned good education. High school is something you should get to experience, not survive.

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Start talking about the plight of the worker, and your topic will probably end up with some Stu posts.

Workers of the world unite!

Dyslexics of the world UNTIE!

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Hold my beer and watch this...