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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:54 am 
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Lutherans excommunicate people?

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Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:34 am 
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Yeah, and after not going to church for about two or three years straight I couldn't blame them.

I just got tired of pretending that I was a believer, and then I started working on weekends during HS and that was it. I never told anybody for at least a decade the real reason for why I stopped going. I didn't want to offend anyone - my family or anyone with the church. I still feel that way today. I'm so confident in my beliefs (or lack thereof) that I don't feel the need to ever confront anyone personally about it. The only person I'll feel the need to discuss it with is my daughter as she gets older. She'll need to make an informed decision, and I'll be obligated to balance the theist dominated social influence with my perspective.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:37 am 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
I thought about how funny being asked for a citation on something so well known as creation science being taught in schools was but after I stopped laughing I thought for any that are interested on a brief history of the court battles and what not, a great time line was done by the guys at ReligiousTolerance.org.

I'm not talking about the scopes monkey trial and history class here.

The practice was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in bloody 1968.
No public school...anywhere in the US...has taught creationism since 1968.
The very few times the notion has been suggested it's been rightly and easily blocked by the court....as evidenced in your link.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Hasn't been taught since the 60's? Um...you may want to scroll down and read more of that link or do a bit of research yourself. Also the watered down evolution studies that have resulted from the intelligent design pushers has had a hug impact in what is and is not covered in schools.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
Hasn't been taught since the 60's? Um...you may want to scroll down and read more of that link or do a bit of research yourself. Also the watered down evolution studies that have resulted from the intelligent design pushers has had a hug impact in what is and is not covered in schools.

I read the entire page you linked to and well as many other sources.
I see a handful of states passing laws that were all overturned by the supreme court.

It's unconstitutional.
It isn't taught in schools and hasn't been since the 1960's.
Period.

If you have a specific example, I'm all ears.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:48 pm 
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Even the history rewriting Texas BoE didn't try to get creationism into their new curriculum standards.


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ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:50 pm 
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i support the making out between lesbians.

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daz28
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:26 am 
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ironyisadeadscene wrote:
i support the making out between lesbians.

Quote from movie my g/f made me watch, and one she WON'T STOP REPEATING over and over now, "If I was a woman, I'd be a slut; a lesbian slut."

Can you guess the movie?

it was funny as fuck.


Oh ya, kids will learn what creationism is anyhow, whether the school teaches it or not. Spend 20 minutes on what it meant, and then move on in the curriculum. If you meant teaching it as "fact", then you must remind the students 80% of what they are actually learning is actually theory.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:14 am 
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Crosscheck wrote:
If you have a specific example, I'm all ears.


I haven't looked for individual schools but some quick reserach shows this:

From the Wiki:

"The teaching of creation science in public schools in the United States effectively ended in 1987 following the United States Supreme Court decision in Edwards v. Aguillard.[3] The court affirmed that a statute requiring the teaching of creation science alongside evolution when evolution is taught in Louisiana public schools was unconstitutional because its sole true purpose was to advance a particular religious belief.[9]"

From Religioustolerance.org:

"An Arkansas state law (#590), passed in 1981, mandated the teaching of Creation Science in schools. Equal time was to be given also to evolution. A legal action 1 was mounted (McLean vs. Arkansas, 1981) to overturn the law. Scientists and many main-line Christian Churches were pitted against conservative Christian groups. The law was declared unconstitutional
A similar "Creationism Act" was passed in Louisiana. It required that either both or neither evolution and creation science be taught in the public schools. Some Louisiana parents, teachers, and religious leaders challenged the Act's constitutionality in Federal District Court. They won an injunction which was affirmed by the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court. 2 By a 7 to 2 vote, the act was found to violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution. The Supreme Court found:

"...the Act evinces a discriminatory preference for the teaching of creation science and against the teaching of evolution by:
bullet requiring that curriculum guides be developed and resource services supplied for teaching creationism but not for teaching evolution,
bullet by limiting membership on the resource services panel to 'creation scientists,' and
bullet by forbidding school boards to discriminate against anyone who 'chooses to be a creation-scientist' or to teach creation science, while failing to protect those who choose to teach other theories or who refuse to teach creation science.

The Act's primary purpose was to change the public school science curriculum to provide persuasive advantage to a particular religious doctrine that rejects the factual basis of evolution in its entirety. Thus, the Act is designed either to promote the theory of creation science that embodies a particular religious tenet or to prohibit the teaching of a scientific theory disfavored by certain religious sects. In either case, the Act violates the First Amendment"


and another from RT.org:

"During the mid 1990's, creation science groups started to persuade school boards to give equal time to creation science."


From this I see that 1981 Arkansas mandated creationism to be taught, which it was until it was turned over. Creationism was being taught in Arkansas and Louisiana at least until the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard case. Since then individual school boards have been persuaded by intelligent design peddlers to include it in their curriculum. I haven't looked deep enough to give you highschool names, teacher names etc and I'm not a scholar on this but I do know that it didn't stop in the 60's and it has been continuing despite battles to stop it. I don't believe it to be wide spread but from what I have found in oh 30 minutes of reading shows that the date of 67 isn't accurate though admittedly I don't have a a great date either than references to the 80's and 90's.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:30 am 
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Also here's one instance of it being taught recently. It was overturned and the shcool dropped it fromt heir curriculum but none the less it was taught. I don't know for how long but none the less it's a modern example.

Excerpt from a 2005 news article:

"The controversy divided Dover and surrounding Dover Township, a rural area of nearly 20,000 residents about 20 miles south of Harrisburg. It galvanized voters to oust eight school board members who supported the policy in the Nov. 8 school board election. The ninth board member was not up for re-election.

The new school board president, Bernadette Reinking, said the board intends to remove intelligent design from the science curriculum and place it in an elective social studies class."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/ns ... -science//

School boards have been voting on this kind of thing and when it gets passed and the teachers start teaching creationism parents rise up and take it to court. Thankfully they have won. That being said, for a time creationism is being taught until it can be beat down again.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:17 pm 
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It was never taught.
It was added to the curriculum, they were sued, the school board was thrown on their ass and it was removed.
I followed the case.

If a teacher got up in front of a class and said "the earth was created in 7 days and God made you" they would be fired.
Even in the most bible thumping backwoods school district you can think of.

Just because people try to get their religious views added to a school curriculum doesn't mean it's actually being taught.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
It was never taught.


It was added to the curriculum in oct 2004. The lawsuit was won in december 2005. What do you suppose they were teaching in the interim?


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:11 pm 
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YankeeInRaleigh wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
It was never taught.


It was added to the curriculum in oct 2004. The lawsuit was won in december 2005. What do you suppose they were teaching in the interim?

They were teaching the previous curriculum.

1 year sounds about right for an un-appealed law suit.
EDIT: The ACLU filed suit on December 14, 2004
Generally a stay of whatever the matter is before the court is granted until the issue is resolved.

It was never taught.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Here ya go....this is what the Dover school board added to the curriculum...teachers would be required to read this statement:

Quote:
The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin's theory of evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin's Theory is a theory, it is still being tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.

Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.

As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families. As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments.


boy oh boy...they might as well have been baptizing the kids right there in class.

/it was never taught.

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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:

boy oh boy...they might as well have been baptizing the kids right there in class.

/it was never taught.


It's still in the classroom. Aside from that, doesn't it bother you at all that people who explain the creation of our universe and the rise of our species with magic are trying to stick their noses in our science classes? The money drained from school districts to fight this crap in court, the time, the effort, the damage it does to the scientific community and so on is both a burden and just plain ridiculous.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Displaced Fan wrote:
It's still in the classroom. Aside from that, doesn't it bother you at all that people who explain the creation of our universe and the rise of our species with magic are trying to stick their noses in our science classes? The money drained from school districts to fight this crap in court, the time, the effort, the damage it does to the scientific community and so on is both a burden and just plain ridiculous.

Listen...I'm just as non-religious as you are. I'm just not anti-religious.

The counterpoint to everything you just brought up is:
The school board that voted to modify the curriculum were freely elected officials.
The people of their community voted them into office, they pulled this stunt and the same community voted them out of office.

Justice ran its course, Supreme court precedent was upheld, no children were taught religion and maybe now the people of Dover think twice before voting for school board members.

I'm not getting too upset.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Ahem course ;)

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:57 pm 
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mechaphil wrote:
Ahem course ;)

the touch typing / muscle memory bug hits me again....bah.
thx phil ;)

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Hey, if Stuuu'uuu'uu is our resident Apostrophe Nazi, I might as well stand by his side as the resident Spelling Nazi :D

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:01 pm 
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mechaphil wrote:
Hey, if Stuuu'uuu'uu is our resident Apostrophe Nazi, I might as well stand by his side as the resident Spelling Nazi :D

See, with normal typos, spell check catches my eye...when my fingers just keep typing and spell out another proper word, I never notice...oh well.

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