It is currently Fri May 29, 2026 7:37 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:43 pm 
Offline
Star Sniper
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:45 pm
Posts: 3021
Location: So far away
daz28 wrote:
What's wrong with trying to pry(by trade) Leighton or Boucher from PHI; or Hedberg or Osgood or Conklin or Budaj or Clemmensen or Auld or Labarbera or Elliot or Johnson. I'm not saying every guy here is a better option, but pointing out there are options. I think paying out another 4 or 5k to get 4-5 more wins is actually VERY justified. Especially if Miller goes down(as irony pointed out). Btw 1980, you think EVERYONE is overpaid. You thought Hank and Loods would get 1.7-2.


Because we have a goalie that is going to be a 65 game starter, so Buffalo is one of those clubs that shouldn't be putting a lot into a back-up. Besides, the team was more to blame for Lalime's record, so the back-up isn't the primary reason for the non-Miller record. Yeah, I probabloy seem stingy about contracts, but I didn't think Tallinder and Lydman were necessarily worth only 1.7-2 mil, I thought that they should only be re-signed in Buffalo for that amount, given that I believe their talents are over-rated and can be replaced fairly easily. Overall I thought their market value was about 2.5-3 mil.

And Irony, if Miller goes down the back-up isn't bringing a Cup to Buffalo plain and simple. What team has ridden the back-up to a Cup? I don't know but we shouldn't be planning the cap around success in the case Miller goes down...and no team should.


Top
 Profile  
 
X-pensfan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:27 pm 
Offline
Star Sniper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 3668
Location: Pittsburgh
Sabresfansince1980 wrote:
With a goalie making over 6 mil and now in a stage of starting 65 games a year, there is no justification to pay a back-up over 1 mil a season. There are six teams paying two goalies over 1 mil...

NJ - just signed Hedberg to 1.5 mil because Broduer is about done his worload needs to be reduced
Tor - Gustavsson at 1.350 mil because he's actually the starter while over-paid Giggy splits time
StL - Conklin at 1.3 was getting good minutes but now they have Halak
Col - Budaj at 1.250 mil was also getting good minutes until Anderson was signed last summer
Bos - Rask at 1.250 mil is the real starter while Thomas eats cap space
Fla - Clemmensen at 1.200 mil playing behind Vokoun

Only Florida is a scenario where an established starter was playing well and the team decided to bolster it's back-up position anyway. Broduer clearly is wearing down, Gustavsson was signed before Giggy, same for Conklin and Budaj, and Thomas is being shopped. The rest of the league doesn't put more than 4-5 million into it's goalie position, but Darcy should spend more than 7 million??? Why spend more than 1 mil on a back-up that won't play more than 17 games, especially when the real problem is the play in front of him?!? I get it that people just don't like Lalime, but there's not a better option for under 1 mil, and there usually isn't no matter what off-season it is.



This is another good post.

A little off topic but my philosophy when it comes to goal tending is simple: KEEP THEM MOTIVATED. Every year, young upstart goalies that were drafted late in the first round, or more commonly in the 5th or later rounds prove to be as good or better then the vast majority of the elite stars of the position. You got your Rask, Halak, and on and on. If I were a GM I would NEVER pay a goalie more than 2 million a year no matter who he is. There's just too much riding on one mans wills and whims. I want my goalies with something to prove, focused, competing with each other to make a name for themselves.

Take Howard for example. The Red Wings are getting him for another year at 717k because he was drafted in the 5th round. Entry level contracts are 3 years long, so unless you're drafted way up in the 1st round you're only going to get around 1 million/year with bonuses included.

Then there's the Canadians. Right idea, but their timing was off. The Habs have always had a pretty good eye for goalies, and Price and Halak are about the same. Personally, I think Halak's rebound control is like a recovering cocaine addict with a live hand grenade. And Price's positioning looks like he is about 2 hours behind the play. But they have some talent, they are young, affordable, and most importantly motivated. Halek won the job and they got A LOT out of him. Now that it's time to collect they got even more via a very shrewd trade. The only problem is that Price is also up for his RFA deal. The best way to do it is to stagger it by 2 years. And keep bringing in the "next one".

It's not that they aren't out there, and it's not like they can't be found with low draft picks-hell even Miller was a 5th rounder! The hard part is finding one EVERY year (or at least every other year). if you miss finding one for too long, the whole thing gets thrown out of whack. Some teams just know how to find them, San Jose, Buffalo, Montreal, etc. But most make the mistake of KEEPING them.

Ironically Miller is perhaps the only elite goalie in hockey not even making what he's worth. Most of the big named goalies are over paid.

My thinking is that when you have that inward struggle, you bring out the best in your goalies AND-since they aren't making much you can keep making roster moves without crushing your cap numbers. Take the 2-7 million in savings each year and pay an all-star defense men.

_________________
"I love that you know how to do that." Cheryl/Carol/Crystal

"And I love that I have an erection that doesn't involve homeless people." Kreiger


Top
 Profile  
 
Sabresfansince1980
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:56 pm 
Offline
Star Sniper
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:45 pm
Posts: 3021
Location: So far away
I think your 2 million limit is too low, but in general the league is starting to feel the same way. We've seen teams winning the a Cup lately without a big time goalie (Osgood, Niemi). GMs are now starting to put more value on the skaters that can play a game that makes a lower tier goalie viable. I still think you need a goalie playing very well, but it doesn't necessarily mean having a top goalie. Miller is a true rarity though, and he is worth his contract and worth putting all your money on, because he's a motivated person that's driven toward success. We've only seen examples of this in net from Broduer, Hasek and Roy over the last 25 years. Like it or not, Buffalo is a team now that is justifiably going to put all their bets on their goalie.


Top
 Profile  
 
daz28
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:11 am 
Offline
Star Sniper

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:31 pm
Posts: 3363
Sabresfansince1980 wrote:

Because we have a goalie that is going to be a 65 game starter, so Buffalo is one of those clubs that shouldn't be putting a lot into a back-up. Besides, the team was more to blame for Lalime's record, so the back-up isn't the primary reason for the non-Miller record..

Dude, I'm only asking for like maybe 750k, and a 2nd rounder(at most). We can afford both. I think it gives us insurance through the year, and maybe the guy DOES have a good year (which he may have coming into a good system). I wish someone would offer ME an explanation of how the management is supposed to address the notion of the team not playing in front of Lalime. I don't like to cry, but it would be nice to be the dictator for once(not meaning you either 1980, you would argue with an oak). If you remove the notion that 1.4 is pricey(and we can afford it), then why not. Our back-up should(have been) be AT LEAST a 50% guy(last year). That's at least 4 losses, which can be attributed to him for WHATEVER REASON(CAN I EMPHASIZE THAT POINT ANY MORE). Think of musicians. Sometimes they just need different band mates. I don't have the answer why, I just want the wins.

EDIT: The GM may not be done yet, but it looks like Lalime is for sure. He could theoretically make a move where it redeems him. This will keep anyone from assuming that I hate the GM of the Sabres. Maybe after arbitration he makes a good move. If not, then fuck him, right?


Top
 Profile  
 
Squanto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:57 am 
Offline
Carlos Spicy-Wiener
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:31 am
Posts: 9240
Location: FAP TURBO
daz28 wrote:
Dude, I'm only asking for like maybe 750k, and a 2nd rounder(at most). We can afford both. I think it gives us insurance through the year, and maybe the guy DOES have a good year (which he may have coming into a good system). I wish someone would offer ME an explanation of how the management is supposed to address the notion of the team not playing in front of Lalime.


If you're paying Lalime $600k, who are you going to find for $150k more that's going to be such a significant upgrade? You mentioned '5 more wins a year' earlier. How do you get 5 more win out of such a minimal upgrade in talent?

Lalime is not the greatest goalie. He's on the downside of his career, and he's had nights that he's been downright awful. He's also had nights that he's come in for Miller and saved a game. (Vs Pit I think it was.) He's had nights that he came in and played well, but the forwards took the night off and didn't feel like scoring. That's evidenced by his very low goal support, even when he wins.

Bottom line, backup goaltending does not win you championships. It's a position that you upgrade when you can, but it doesn't make sense to give up draft picks to try and go crazy on it.


Top
 Profile  
 
CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:18 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 16859
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
Lalime is a Decent backup goalie. Compare him to goalies that played 10-25 games last season:

Image

Decent.

Image

Decent.


They get too caught up in this:
Image

And forget that it's because of this:
Image


And now this season we're looking at this:
Image

_________________
Proud LGBTQQ Individual


Top
 Profile  
 
CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:23 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 16859
Squanto wrote:
daz28 wrote:
Dude, I'm only asking for like maybe 750k, and a 2nd rounder(at most). We can afford both. I think it gives us insurance through the year, and maybe the guy DOES have a good year (which he may have coming into a good system). I wish someone would offer ME an explanation of how the management is supposed to address the notion of the team not playing in front of Lalime.


If you're paying Lalime $600k, who are you going to find for $150k more that's going to be such a significant upgrade? You mentioned '5 more wins a year' earlier. How do you get 5 more win out of such a minimal upgrade in talent?

Lalime is not the greatest goalie. He's on the downside of his career, and he's had nights that he's been downright awful. He's also had nights that he's come in for Miller and saved a game. (Vs Pit I think it was.) He's had nights that he came in and played well, but the forwards took the night off and didn't feel like scoring. That's evidenced by his very low goal support, even when he wins.

Bottom line, backup goaltending does not win you championships. It's a position that you upgrade when you can, but it doesn't make sense to give up draft picks to try and go crazy on it.




Neuvirth, Ersberg, Dubnyk, and Johnson are all in that price range, but all those guys are fairly solid where they are. None of them are significantly better than Lalime. Neuvirth has a better save pct, but he's playing with the freaking capitals scoring 4 goals for him a night. Ersberg has a better GAA but thats not always reflective of a goalie's performance.


And Edmonton just extended Dubnyk, who is fucking terrible, to an $800k contract. Could be worse for us.

_________________
Proud LGBTQQ Individual


Top
 Profile  
 
daz28
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:50 pm 
Offline
Star Sniper

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:31 pm
Posts: 3363
Squanto wrote:
daz28 wrote:

If you're paying Lalime $600k, who are you going to find for $150k more that's going to be such a significant upgrade?

I was actually asking for(roughly) 750k MORE. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, I think I SHOULD be getting too caught up in 4-12. That's the MOST important stat.

also, also, how I got 4 more wins was by assuming a backup should be able to have gone at least 7-5, or maybe even 8-4 on this club(4 more wins than Lalime).

...but whatever, we're pretty much stuck with the guy, and he makes Millsie happy. I guess I'll just drink extra on Lalime nights.


Top
 Profile  
 
NYIntensity
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:02 pm 
Offline
Superstar Goalie
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:11 pm
Posts: 4463
Let's not get into the stats argument, or I'll accuse you of not watching the games or being a real fan ;)

_________________
ksquier89 wrote:
Holy fucking fuck...Boyes couldn't suck a dick if it landed in his mouth.


Top
 Profile  
 
Hammygoodness
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:32 pm 
Offline
More Heart Than Skill
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:07 am
Posts: 2030
Location: Ilion, NY
Well the backup goalie position may not be that important. But Lalime's thread has now racked up 8 pages of posts.

Ham

_________________
Do you believe yet?


Top
 Profile  
 
daz28
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:56 pm 
Offline
Star Sniper

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:31 pm
Posts: 3363
NYIntensity wrote:
Let's not get into the stats argument, or I'll accuse you of not watching the games or being a real fan ;)

Haha, I don't think wins should actually count as a "stat" being it is the result of the match. +/- is probably the most abused stat though. A lot of people lend it very little credence.


Top
 Profile  
 
CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:55 am 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 16859
daz28 wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Let's not get into the stats argument, or I'll accuse you of not watching the games or being a real fan ;)

Haha, I don't think wins should actually count as a "stat" being it is the result of the match. +/- is probably the most abused stat though. A lot of people lend it very little credence.



It can be misleading. I think on a game by game basis, it isn't very reliable. But when used over a longer period of time, can tell a lot about a player's level of responsibility. Hell, it's one of my favorite stats, but saying Briere is a -3 in X game might not be telling the whole story.

_________________
Proud LGBTQQ Individual


Top
 Profile  
 
HelloMyKneeGrows
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:00 am 
Offline
Garbage Man
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 929
Location: Greece, NY
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
daz28 wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Let's not get into the stats argument, or I'll accuse you of not watching the games or being a real fan ;)

Haha, I don't think wins should actually count as a "stat" being it is the result of the match. +/- is probably the most abused stat though. A lot of people lend it very little credence.



It can be misleading. I think on a game by game basis, it isn't very reliable. But when used over a longer period of time, can tell a lot about a player's level of responsibility. Hell, it's one of my favorite stats, but saying Briere is a -3 in X game might not be telling the whole story.


I think plus/minus ranks about 15th on the list of relevant stats in a single gAME AND ABOUT 10TH FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON....

Sorry, caps button on my computer at work got stuck and too lazy to retype

_________________
"I can't really hear what Jeremy says, because I got my two Stanley Cup Rings plugging my ears...." -Patrick Roy in reference to Jeremy Roenick's trash talking


Top
 Profile  
 
AudSabres
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:11 am 
Offline
Superstar Goalie
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:35 pm
Posts: 4998
Location: In your head, producing very weird thoughts.
To me, +/- can be very misleading. Game situations have produced some of the flukiest/weird goals (Dump-ins that go off the glass and in the net, for example) A player may be just getting onto the bench or coming on the ice for a change and the puck goes in. Then it's either in favor or against him even though he had nothing to do with the cause of the puck going in. Those kinds of plays, although rare, can give an inaccurate stat. I know, I'm looking at plays that may not happen all too often, but it's just one example.

If they ever did away with that stat, I wouldn't lose any sleep over, but that is just my opinion.

_________________
If it's a tight squeeze, spit on it! - NyI

He's a middling AHL player who had the good fortune of a drunk arbitrator. - The Squanto re: Tim Kennedy


Top
 Profile  
 
Squanto
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:25 am 
Offline
Carlos Spicy-Wiener
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:31 am
Posts: 9240
Location: FAP TURBO
Short term, +/- can be deceiving.

Over a longer period, it holds more meaning.


Top
 Profile  
 
X-pensfan
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:32 am 
Offline
Star Sniper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 3668
Location: Pittsburgh
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
daz28 wrote:
NYIntensity wrote:
Let's not get into the stats argument, or I'll accuse you of not watching the games or being a real fan ;)

Haha, I don't think wins should actually count as a "stat" being it is the result of the match. +/- is probably the most abused stat though. A lot of people lend it very little credence.



It can be misleading. I think on a game by game basis, it isn't very reliable. But when used over a longer period of time, can tell a lot about a player's level of responsibility. Hell, it's one of my favorite stats, but saying Briere is a -3 in X game might not be telling the whole story.


When discussing +/- it helps a lot if you mention the team +/- for the player(s) in question. For example. Hetch was a +14, the Sabres were a +13, so in relation to the teams +/- he was a +1. Butler would have been a -29, not very good.

But there's no way of really being able to determine if a player is good defensively from +/-, it's a flawed stat. You can be part of a line that's really good at forechecking and have a favorable number. Even though you play a rather retarded style of hocking in the D-zone. Hockey is always in the grey area, there's no offense and no defense, you either have the puck or you're trying to get it back. +/- is what I would call a grey statistic. Or vague.

I really like numbers, but I pay more attention to blocked shots, takeaways, hits, and ice time. Combine all that with the teams results and the +/- becomes a little more black and white.

_________________
"I love that you know how to do that." Cheryl/Carol/Crystal

"And I love that I have an erection that doesn't involve homeless people." Kreiger


Top
 Profile  
 
SabreWolf
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:06 am 
Offline
Textbook Grinder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 471
Location: Canada Eh?
Hammygoodness wrote:
Well the backup goalie position may not be that important. But Lalime's thread has now racked up 8 pages of posts.

Ham


But losses from Lalime being in net add up after a while, that's my problem with the team and with him. We always throw away these opportunities to get 2 points when they're reasonably available.

_________________
Revenge is sweet... Revenge is best served cold... Revenge is ice cream.


Top
 Profile  
 
Hammygoodness
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:39 pm 
Offline
More Heart Than Skill
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:07 am
Posts: 2030
Location: Ilion, NY
SabreWolf wrote:
Hammygoodness wrote:
Well the backup goalie position may not be that important. But Lalime's thread has now racked up 8 pages of posts.

Ham


But losses from Lalime being in net add up after a while, that's my problem with the team and with him. We always throw away these opportunities to get 2 points when they're reasonably available.

Take that up with the top 6 forwards.

Ham

_________________
Do you believe yet?


Top
 Profile  
 
Skyline_BNR34
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:10 pm 
Offline
Cup Winner
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:34 pm
Posts: 13019
Location: North Carolina
SabreWolf wrote:
Hammygoodness wrote:
Well the backup goalie position may not be that important. But Lalime's thread has now racked up 8 pages of posts.

Ham


But losses from Lalime being in net add up after a while, that's my problem with the team and with him. We always throw away these opportunities to get 2 points when they're reasonably available.

We still won the division with Lalime as a backup too.

_________________
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
No need for violence, just tell her she's got a game misconduct and show her the door.

Rud wrote:
As I said in the GDT, the call on Rivet was horseshit. The Bruins player was holding onto Rivet's stick like it was the last fucking raft on the Titanic.


Top
 Profile  
 
SabreWolf
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:10 pm 
Offline
Textbook Grinder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 471
Location: Canada Eh?
Skyline_BNR34 wrote:
SabreWolf wrote:
Hammygoodness wrote:
Well the backup goalie position may not be that important. But Lalime's thread has now racked up 8 pages of posts.

Ham


But losses from Lalime being in net add up after a while, that's my problem with the team and with him. We always throw away these opportunities to get 2 points when they're reasonably available.

We still won the division with Lalime as a backup too.


To be fair, our division was pretty weak for a good part of the year.

_________________
Revenge is sweet... Revenge is best served cold... Revenge is ice cream.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: