Who is reaching out to whom in this instance?

This would be like the Jews reaching out to the Germans...shit just ain't gonna happen. Be apologetic; for fuck's sake, I feel guilty being white sometimes.

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Not only does that work as an analogy, there is historical precedent.

A bunch of nuns opened up a convent next to Auschwitz to pray for the victims of the death camp.
Sounds good right? Doing something positive by a religion at a location of great tragedy.

Well in Poland, churches don't have the constitutional protections our friends building the mosque do.
Some Israelis and Polish jews complained about the presence of the convent and the whole matter ended with the Pope ordering the nuns to move to a location further away.

You know...to be sensitive to the victims...*gasp*

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/15/world ... hwitz.html

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Hold my beer and watch this...

The German people include members of the Jewish faith obviously but events that I went to were organized by groups ranging from historical societies, churches, veterans organizations, schools etc. They were all different but basically the overall idea was about healing and unity. I went to castles that had been military strong holds, town centers, plain old farm fields that had been camp sites and a few other random places throughout south western Germany. As for whom was reaching out it would be German people in general and to whom would be anyone harmed during the Holocaust. They were a bit uncomfortable sometimes but the overall feeling was a mix of regret and pain on both sides and a desire to leave it in the past and look towards the future.

As for the second part of your post, it's not as cut and dry as that. Not all Germans were involved in the crimes obviously and many had friends and family that stayed or helped them. Many (Jewish people) always considered themselves "German" so the process of their own country trying to reconnect with them is beyond my scope of understanding. German people feel very very guilty for what happened even generations removed from the war and they won't talk about it much. I'm not an expert on it by any means I was just saying that from my experience German's do celebrate (totally not the right word) on certain dates to offer an olive branch to Jewish people within the country.

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Well that's swell but I don't agree that the scope of the HOLOCAUST can be compared to 9/11. Sorry. Also I ALREADY FUCKING SAID THAT THEY SHOULD RETHINK THE FUCKING DATE. FUCK. Beat that horse.

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I don't think XC brought the date into question with his post, but I agree with you; the atrocities don't compare in magnitude, but if you look at national sentiment, they're probably on par.

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I understand that Americans feel strongly about this, I do to. I was in a uniform when I found out and ran the base fallout shelter during the weeks following 9/11 for chrisesake. I've lost close friends in Afghanistan and Iraq and would wipe the terrorists off the face of the globe if I could. When it's all said and done though the level of impact on not just people here but also the world can't compare. 3,000 lost their lives on 9/11 but over 6 million Jews alone were murdered during the Holocaust not discounting the millions of other people killed under the Nazi rule. MILLIONS. That's a number I can't wrap my head around and to compare it to two planes that crashed into two building.....nuts.

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the number was not the basis of the analogy. no one referenced the magnitude, just the act in itself. you took this off course.

I know it wasn't but it seems everyone has Nazi tourettes. Bottom line is that I personally don't have an issue with them opening on 9/11 but I understand why people take offense to it. If anyone wants to bitch about my opinion you can go fuck yourself since I didn't jump anyone else.

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I really don't see how you don't have an issue with them opening on the anniversary of an attack by people of the same religion that killed thousands of Americans.

It's like opening a Nazi museum the first day the ovens at Auschwitz were fired up. I'm going to disregard your "go fuck yourself" sentiment, because I'm honestly trying to have a discussion, not attack you.

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Well firstly it's not like opening a Nazi museum. Nazis killed millions. This is a moderate Muslim religious center. Moderate Muslims didn't kill anyone.

These people are Americans. They suffered just like the rest of us during 9/11. They have condemned the attacks since day one. Holding resentment towards them would be placing my hate and pain at the feet of the wrong people.

I think a lot of people have this image in their head that the people who are opening this mosque are the same people who hijacked planes on 9/11 so they make the wrong connections (And I'm speaking of the general public, not anyone in particular). Muslims want to be part of this country like everyone else and they are trying to reach out to their communities to let people know that they aren't evil, vile terrorists. It's naive to think most Americans can separate the religious extremists of the Muslim faith from the rest of the herd which is why I would suggest to them to just open on another day. They are specifically trying to open on this date because they believe it would show their unification with the rest of America in remembering and condemning the attacks. I'm not saying it's smart, realistic or packed with a bunch of common sense. I'm simply saying I understand their point of view.

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The Imam heading the movement to open the mosque has been acting quite "suspect" if you will. Maybe that's his personality, but I don't trust him. He seems very shifty, in a very intelligent way.

If I'm not mistaken, there has also been some investigation into the group who is paying for the Mosque (funding I believe is coming from a group in the UAE or Kuwait that also had ties to the 9/11 terrorists).

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Looking at it from another point of view, putting a mosque their is going to do nothing but breed animosity between its patrons and the surrounding community. Expect a lot of hate crimes and vandalism.

This is a REALLY bad business decision.

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I agree. Realistically Americans aren't going to act favorably to this despite the center's desire to unify. Like I said, it's not a smart move.

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I mean mosques across the country have been met with vandalism, bomb threats, death threats etc so opening one on the anniversary in NYC is naive at best.

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I've generally stayed away from this topic, but read something today that might change some perspectives.

- The location of the Cordoba House is 2.5 blocks from the corner of Vessy and Broadway. (That corner is on the north side of the former WTC site.)

- The building is not being built as a mosque. It's intended purposed is that of cultural center. One of the planned rooms is a prayer room.

- Muslims already pray at this site, and have been for some time with no objection.

Doesn't seem to fit with what has been portrayed as a mosque right across the street from the pit.

Sqaunto, these people are evil terrorists okay? Stop trying to bring reason into this.

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I brought up the "blocks away" thing, too. I'm cool with the location. Not the date.

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I suppose the Jewish anti-defamation league are just a bunch of right wing bigots who aren't bringing "reason" into this either.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-wa ... 65875.html



If you really want to bring "reason" into the argument, reason and common sense say it's a stupid and insensitive thing to do.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I really think that if they changed the date they wanted to open, the dissent would die

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Nobody seems to be objecting to the fact that there's already Muslims praying at this location TODAY.

And honestly, the date thing should really be a minimal concern at this point. They haven't even been approved to knock the existing building down to start building this center yet. If they build it, and push to open it on 9/11, I can understand the consternation.

But this is a lot of hullabaloo about a project that's still quite a ways away from getting off the ground.