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fly as hale
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:38 pm 
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My take...

Apparently, some people have claimed that when the screen goes black, you can hear the top fall... I've seen it twice and haven't heard it fall, but everyone in the theatre groaned when the screen went black so who knows. I believe that it was reality and not a dream. Apparently Cobb only wears his wedding ring when he is dreaming and not in reality. I didn't notice if he was wearing his wedding ring or not in the final scene.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I sort of like that Nolan left a few plot holes in the story, such as the ones that YIR and Phil are discussing. It's almost as if Nolan performed "inception" on his viewers, planting an idea into our heads and interpreting the film how we perceive it and not knowing whether it's reality or not.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:54 pm 
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fly as hale wrote:
My take...

Apparently, some people have claimed that when the screen goes black, you can hear the top fall... I've seen it twice and haven't heard it fall, but everyone in the theatre groaned when the screen went black so who knows. I believe that it was reality and not a dream. Apparently Cobb only wears his wedding ring when he is dreaming and not in reality. I didn't notice if he was wearing his wedding ring or not in the final scene.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I sort of like that Nolan left a few plot holes in the story, such as the ones that YIR and Phil are discussing. It's almost as if Nolan performed "inception" on his viewers, planting an idea into our heads and interpreting the film how we perceive it and not knowing whether it's reality or not.

Holy shit Caro, your second paragraph has my mind reeling. That'd be the biggest fourth wall-breaking mindfuck I can think of.

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:08 am 
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I want to fully explain what I think, but it would be a huge post that I don't want to take the time to write. lol.

I do think that the top definitely does not noticeably drop in any way. That is absolutely essential to what I think Nolan was trying to do in my opinion.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:09 am 
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acrossthelines wrote:
I want to fully explain what I think, but it would be a huge post that I don't want to take the time to write. lol.

I do think that the top definitely does not noticeably drop in any way. That is absolutely essential to what I think Nolan was trying to do in my opinion.

I think that it wobbles at all is a very strong moment because in any previous scene with the top in dream sequences it never so much as wavers.

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fly as hale
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:22 am 
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I agree with Phil.

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:28 am 
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mechaphil wrote:
I think that it wobbles at all is a very strong moment because in any previous scene with the top in dream sequences it never so much as wavers.


True, but Cobb never gives it time to wobble in any previous scenes, either. One interpretation I have of that scene, which doesn't go along with what I think necessarily but does at the same time because what I think hinges on there being a multitude of different conclusions that are all contradicted and ultimately go nowhere, is that it absolutely doesn't matter whether the top drops or not. What matters is that seeing the faces of his children was enough to distract him from the token to the point that he does not even pick it up as he does in previous scenes when interrupted. They are what convinces him that he is in reality, and whether he is or not does not matter because it is what he believes.

What I haven't quite reconciled is how the top works as a token for him at all, since it is made clear in an early scene when Ariadne is introduced to the concept of tokens that each person's token will only work for him alone IIRC. If Cobb's token was originally his wife's, how does that work for him? Are the faces of his children his actual token? Why does he avoid looking at them when Mal calls them while they are in limbo?

Also, does anyone remember if the top wobbles at the moment that Cobb either sees or begins interacting with his children? That would suggest that it is controlled not by his reality but by his perception, because his children are what he clings to as reality throughout the film to the extent that he will not look at their faces when the opportunity is there for him to do so in limbo despite wanting that more than anything else.

I have to see it again...

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fly as hale
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:34 am 
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acrossthelines wrote:

True, but Cobb never gives it time to wobble in any previous scenes, either. One interpretation I have of that scene, which doesn't go along with what I think necessarily but does at the same time because what I think hinges on there being a multitude of different conclusions that are all contradicted and ultimately go nowhere, is that it absolutely doesn't matter whether the top drops or not. What matters is that seeing the faces of his children was enough to distract him from the token to the point that he does not even pick it up as he does in previous scenes when interrupted. They are what convinces him that he is in reality, and whether he is or not does not matter because it is what he believes.

What I haven't quite reconciled is how the top works as a token for him at all, since it is made clear in an early scene when Ariadne is introduced to the concept of tokens that each person's token will only work for him alone IIRC. If Cobb's token was originally his wife's, how does that work for him? Are the faces of his children his actual token? Why does he avoid looking at them when Mal calls them while they are in limbo?

Also, does anyone remember if the top wobbles at the moment that Cobb either sees or begins interacting with his children? That would suggest that it is controlled not by his reality but by his perception, because his children are what he clings to as reality throughout the film to the extent that he will not look at their faces when the opportunity is there for him to do so in limbo despite wanting that more than anything else.

I have to see it again...

I think the top works for Cobb because Mal is dead, so since it's no longer hers, Cobb could use it as his own totem.

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:36 am 
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This thread is ridiculous with the spoiler tags. I crack up every time I open it. :lol: Can't help it.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:36 am 
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acrossthelines wrote:
mechaphil wrote:
I think that it wobbles at all is a very strong moment because in any previous scene with the top in dream sequences it never so much as wavers.


True, but Cobb never gives it time to wobble in any previous scenes, either. One interpretation I have of that scene, which doesn't go along with what I think necessarily but does at the same time because what I think hinges on there being a multitude of different conclusions that are all contradicted and ultimately go nowhere, is that it absolutely doesn't matter whether the top drops or not. What matters is that seeing the faces of his children was enough to distract him from the token to the point that he does not even pick it up as he does in previous scenes when interrupted. They are what convinces him that he is in reality, and whether he is or not does not matter because it is what he believes.

What I haven't quite reconciled is how the top works as a token for him at all, since it is made clear in an early scene when Ariadne is introduced to the concept of tokens that each person's token will only work for him alone IIRC. If Cobb's token was originally his wife's, how does that work for him? Are the faces of his children his actual token? Why does he avoid looking at them when Mal calls them while they are in limbo?

Also, does anyone remember if the top wobbles at the moment that Cobb either sees or begins interacting with his children? That would suggest that it is controlled not by his reality but by his perception, because his children are what he clings to as reality throughout the film to the extent that he will not look at their faces when the opportunity is there for him to do so in limbo despite wanting that more than anything else.

I have to see it again...

Well, Mal is dead now, so that's one way he could've inherited it.

I think he avoids looking at his kids faces in the dream world because he knows that memory doesn't have him seeing their faces and if he looks at their faces in the dream world it starts to build a new world out of his memories which is something he had decided to stop doing at the point that she called them.

Shiiiit now I have to see it again, too.

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:39 am 
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mechaphil wrote:

Shiiiit now I have to see it again, too.


Yeah, that's all I keep thinking every time I think about all the different interpretations I have. :lol: It's such a long movie, with a lot of detail. I don't think anyone is fully correct after one viewing.

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fly as hale
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:34 am 
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Image


hahahahaha

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:35 am 
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OMG so much win! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:24 am 
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:lol:

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:28 am 
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Caro's been trollin ;)

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fly as hale
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:41 am 
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I found that on Joseph Gordon-Levitt's (the actor who played Arthur) Twitter. :lol:

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:52 am 
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they see me trollin'
they hatin'

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:53 am 
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fly as hale wrote:
I found that on Joseph Gordon-Levitt's (the actor who played Arthur) Twitter. :lol:

Maybe he was trollin! XD

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Wozniak
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:07 am 
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actually, any totem can work for anybody. the reason only one person can touch it is so that that one person knows the weight of it, or even that its there, to help keep the grounded.

lets say, for example, that my totem is...a golf tee that is weighted to one side. if no one else knows what it feels like, or that i even have it, i can use it as a way to see where i am. if i think im in a dream i can take the golf tee out and stand it up on something. if it falls to the wrong side or not at all the i know that im in a dream. but if, say, Jael has handled the tee and knows that its weighted to one side then she could construct a dream for me and factor that in. if that happens, im kind of fucked.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:59 am 
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Wozniak wrote:
actually, any totem can work for anybody. the reason only one person can touch it is so that that one person knows the weight of it, or even that its there, to help keep the grounded.

lets say, for example, that my totem is...a golf tee that is weighted to one side. if no one else knows what it feels like, or that i even have it, i can use it as a way to see where i am. if i think im in a dream i can take the golf tee out and stand it up on something. if it falls to the wrong side or not at all the i know that im in a dream. but if, say, Jael has handled the tee and knows that its weighted to one side then she could construct a dream for me and factor that in. if that happens, im kind of fucked.

Which is why Mal's totem works for Cobb - he's the only person still alive who utilizes the top. What happens in his subconscious, though, is that he's been forming dreams from his memories so as to give Mal a second life within his subconscious. Because of that, Mal is fucking with his dreams.

Ho shit, I do love this movie.

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YankeeInRaleigh
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:27 am 
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Thoughts on the worth of a totem:

So, I have a problem with the totem idea. If you're in your own dream, and creating things from memories, wouldnt your subconscious be able to just make the top fall in your dream, so you think you're in reality? If you consciously WANT to be in reality, your subconscious would be able to manifest that in your dream, and make the top fall down.


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