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fly as hale
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Muslim-Americans deserve to have a prayer/community center wherever they choose to build one. Don't forget that they were also vicitimized by 9/11.

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daz28
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:01 pm 
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I think people are confusing the term "mosque" with the term "terrorist training facility". There are plenty of towels in both, but that fact alone doesn't make them the same.


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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Is it also not okay, on April 19th to break ground on the following in certain areas of Oklahoma City?

Christian Center (McVeigh was influenced by a right-wing radical Christian group, Christian Identity).
Army Recruiting Center (McVeigh was in the Army)
NRA Office (McVeigh was adamantly anti-gun control)

Like Islam, none of those above organizations are inherently evil, but all were contributing factors to McVeigh's decision to bomb the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19th, 1995.

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PatGreen
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:10 pm 
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those analogies aren't very good.


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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:22 pm 
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PatGreen wrote:
those analogies aren't very good.


your disagreeing post isn't very good.

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CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:35 pm 
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While i disagree with the assertion that his supposed affiliation with Christian Identity contributed to his decision to bomb the Murrah building (I think it was 99% pissed offedness over Waco and other events in his life), you do have to wonder...

If Christian Identity's ideals were a key contributor in McVeigh's decision to bomb the building, and on April 19th, 2004, a Christian Community Center were set to break ground two blocks from that site, would anyone have any objections whatsoever about it being hallowed ground?

Not a fucking chance in hell.

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peteythedancingsabre
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:43 pm 
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fly as hale wrote:
Muslim-Americans deserve to have a prayer/community center wherever they choose to build one. Don't forget that they were also vicitimized by 9/11.


Thumbs freakin up to this. I've been staying somewhat informed upon this whole thing, and honestly this situation just pisses me off. People of the Islamic faith have as much of a right as someone of the Christian faith to build a place where they can practice their beliefs. Like you said, Muslim-Americans were affected by 9/11 just as much as everyone else. If this was a Christian church being built, everything would be fine and dandy. No one would make so much as a peep about it. But, of course, since it's a "mosque" everyone gets up in arms. I understand how some can see it as insensitive, but to be so against it as so many people are, and for the reasons they are against it (namely being the distance, from what I can tell of the majority of the people)... that's just bigotry.

Also, can anyone find an actual confirmed report that they intend to build it on 9/11? Because, if not, there is no other reason people should be against it. Distance is no reason to shut this thing down, because if you took that logic, how close is too close? Can they build it 4 blocks away? Are they allowed to have mosques in NYC in general? Or should we close down all the mosques in the NYC area and boot out those who practice there? Everyone in this country has the right to freedom of religion, and the freedom to practice their religion where they choose. Or is this just an exception? All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, huh?


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BlueandYellow
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:45 pm 
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fly as hale wrote:
Muslim-Americans deserve to have a prayer/community center wherever they choose to build one. Don't forget that they were also vicitimized by 9/11.


It's not even the fucking religion, either. It's a Muslim group. It's like if a group of Christians killed people. Would we wage war on Christianity?

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:42 am 
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CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
While i disagree with the assertion that his supposed affiliation with Christian Identity contributed to his decision to bomb the Murrah building (I think it was 99% pissed offedness over Waco and other events in his life), you do have to wonder...

If Christian Identity's ideals were a key contributor in McVeigh's decision to bomb the building, and on April 19th, 2004, a Christian Community Center were set to break ground two blocks from that site, would anyone have any objections whatsoever about it being hallowed ground?

Not a fucking chance in hell.

You changed my mind with this post.

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fly as hale
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:30 am 
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PatGreen wrote:
those analogies aren't very good.

Why aren't they? When McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City, no one attributed his Christian faith to his act of terrorism, yet the main reason why so many people are opposed to the building of this Islamic cultural center are against it because they consider Islam as a key factor as to what drove the terrorists to attack us on 9/11.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Greg Easterbrook chimed in on this...almost like Alex wrote it.

Quote:
Why Isn't the Pentagon Mosque on the Front Page? There's a small chance you have heard about a plan to build a mosque near (not "at") Ground Zero in New York. The controversy is puzzling on many levels, most important, that this is America! Freedom must not be an empty concept. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. The basic bargain of the First Amendment, as regards speech as well as faith, is that the sole way to protect the right to opinions and beliefs is to protect all opinions and all beliefs, keeping government out of the business of deciding which ones we like or don't like.

The people who attacked the United States on 9-11 may have called themselves Muslims, though clearly were breaking the tenets of their faith. All religions have produced a few murderous fanatics -- we don't hold this against the faith when Christianity or Judaism is involved. Baruch Goldstein, raised as a Jew, used a machine gun to murder 29 Muslims in 1994 in Hebron. Goldstein was a monster, not a religious believer, and was breaking the tenets of the faith he claimed. No sensible person would say that because of Baruch Goldstein, synagogues should not be built on the West Bank. Timothy McVeigh, who called himself a Christian, murdered 168 people with a terrorist bomb in Oklahoma City, and it's clear to everyone he was breaking the tenets of his faith. Why can't we understand the same thing about the 9-11 killers? No one would object to a Christian church being built near the Oklahoma City terror bomb site.

Here's what really puzzles me -- with all the snarling hatred on display regarding the proposed downtown New York mosque, there's been no discussion of the mosque that already exists inside the Pentagon. Islamic services are held in an interfaith chapel quite close to where a plane flown by murderers struck on 9/11, and that has caused no problems. The Washington Post buried the story on page A-11, while most newspapers and newscasts haven't mentioned the Pentagon mosque at all. If the people who work inside the Pentagon can see past their differences and embrace religious tolerance, how come this is impossible for people such as Newt Gingrich?


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:18 pm 
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fly as hale wrote:
When McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City, no one attributed his Christian faith to his act of terrorism

That's because it wasn't a factor...he was on an anti-federal government bend. The fact that he was a member of a christian identity group was ancillary...those groups are just synonymous with neo-nazi / white power groups.

The pricks that flew into the towers on 9/11 were screaming allahu ackbar and getting ready for their 72 virgins.

I love when the McViegh analogy is brought up though...how many acts of Islamic terrorism have been committed since April 19, 1995?
There is no comparison.

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NYIntensity
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Mother fuck I'm undecided. I see both sides of this argument.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Quote:
Why Isn't the Pentagon Mosque on the Front Page?

Because you'd need almost top secret clearance to even know it exists.
Next question.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:23 pm 
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I hate that argument Ed.

If it's a Christian that does something crazy, his religion doesn't count.

If it's a Muslim that does something crazy, it's obviously because of his religion.

Islam DOESN'T TELL PEOPLE TO COMMIT ACTS OF TERRORISM. Extremist nutjob groups pervert Islam, and teach that they should wipe out the United States.

Christianity DOESN'T TELL PEOPLE TO COMMIT ACTS OF TERRORISM. Extremist nutjob groups pervert Christianity, and teach that they should go out and kill abortion doctors.

See a difference? Cause I don't.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Did McVeigh blow up the building in the name of Jesus?
No.
Did the hijackers blow up the twin towers in the name of Allah?
Yes.

What is so hard to grasp about that?

EDIT: their statement prior to 9/11
Quote:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.

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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:30 pm 
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I'm not talking about McVeigh.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:34 pm 
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THE HIJACKERS WERE NOT PRACTITIONERS OF MAINSTREAM ISLAM. THEY FOLLOWED BIN LADEN AND HIS PERVERSION OF THE RELIGION THAT IS DENOUNCED BY THE ENTIRE MAINSTREAM MUSLIM COMMUNITY.

This is my damn point. 19 individuals with perverted religious views do not represent the views and values of the entire Muslim community. However, for some unknown fucking reason, that's the narrative that is expressed.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
I'm not talking about McVeigh.

Who is the Christian Hezbollah?
Who is the Christian Hammas?

Who are the state sponsors of Christian terrorism?

There is no moral equivalency here.
No one is defending anti abortion nutjobs (the what? 3 or 4 that have killed), but the comparison just isn't there.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
THE HIJACKERS WERE NOT PRACTITIONERS OF MAINSTREAM ISLAM. THEY FOLLOWED BIN LADEN AND HIS PERVERSION OF THE RELIGION THAT IS DENOUNCED BY THE ENTIRE MAINSTREAM MUSLIM COMMUNITY.

This is my damn point. 19 individuals with perverted religious views do not represent the views and values of the entire Muslim community. However, for some unknown fucking reason, that's the narrative that is expressed.

The States of Iran and Syria fund and arm holy warriors to kill Jews and Americans who are denounced at weekly prayers on state television as the great Satan.

It's not 10 guys hatching a plan in a cave.

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