I think Vanek would benefit greatly from playing on a line that can win faceoffs, and sustain pressure in the zone, neither of which are specialties of really any of our centers. Goose has the FO numbers, but he's just not talented enough to play with a guy like Vanek.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

It's kind of like being the only skilled player in the "fun" league. I played volleyball most of my life and in my military days ended up being the captain of the Med Group team. Talk about a bunch of softies man. That first year they couldn't give two shits if we won or lost and had zero volleyball skills to boot. We got slaughtered every game. I would set up this perfect slam and.....nothing. A hit into the net, two idiots going for the same ball, a complete wiff or maybe if I was lucky a maricle nudge over the net. I think I had one or two good hits that whole year and we won only one game. The next year though a buddy of mine got orders to my base, all 6 foot 8 of him and we picked up two new airmen as well. One had played ball for some college and the other was just all around athletic. We ended up winning all but one of our games that year and I had more spikes than I could count. The difference was that playing with retards made me look like shit. The fact that Vanek has been so effective these past two seasons with the supporting cast he has says a lot. Get him some skilled support and i think we'll see just how good he can be.

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Yeah, it's definitely tough in hockey. Style has a lot to do with it too. My regular season inline team is comprised of bigger players who aren't fast or hustle guys by any means, which hurts my game because if I have a takeaway or a counter attacking opportunity, there's no one coming with me. I threw a ton of pucks to the front of the net only for there to be no one there crashing.

Last night I played a game with another quick forward, one active defenseman, and one defensive one (all B-league players) and we were just all over the opposing team. We came on for a shit with three minutes to go in the first and scored 4-5 goals with the puck spending maybe 20 seconds total in our defensive zone. Everybody had about the same speed and amount of hustle, so everyone was where everyone else expected them to be, passes were crisp and it was just easy hockey.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

Most times I'm playing D, or defensive forward but man, this kind of shit drives me nuts when coming up on the rush. When I play forward it is normally the right side and if I manage to force a turnover and begin the rush into the offensive zone, by the time I get in there to setup and take a look, there is not ONE guy with me and 2-3 defenders so then of course I get circled and/or stripped of any opportunity to create anything. Either that or just drive a shot on net because no one else is up there to pass it off to so it ends up being a wasted play.

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If it's a tight squeeze, spit on it! - NyI

He's a middling AHL player who had the good fortune of a drunk arbitrator. - The Squanto re: Tim Kennedy

Okay, maybe Vanek isn't superb defensively. I should grab a thesaurus.

He's above average defensively, but not "ZOMG FUCKER TOOK MY PUCK AWAY WITH HIS ASS"... defensively.

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"Counting all the assholes in the room, I'm definitely not alone!" ~ Michael Poulsen, Volbeat, Still Standing.

What Squanto said is probably true. It's difficult to compare one player on team a, so another play on team b that make the same amount of money.

I guess the question is, is Vanek worth that much for THIS team?

As for what DP said, he is also correct. It's not worth comparing Vanek to players like Iginla, or Datsyuk, because you won't find an all around comparison. It's just not there.

Guys like that are franchise guys, leaders on the team SURROUNDING other leaders on the team that can get shit done. Take a team like the Red Wings for instance. They have about 5-10 players that could be considered about as valuable as Vanek. Is it their defensive scheme? Their coaching? How about the talent around them? Probably all of the above.

To me, because i'm a guy that watches the little things in hockey, Vanek is a 7 million dollar scorer. He is improving, but never in his career will he be a true complete player.

Actually watch him play. When he is not in the offensive zone, he's borderline useless. He makes the occasional angry backcheck, and when he does the announcers become surprised, but he doesn't have a huge element to his game beyond scoring.

Take the playoffs for example. Good on the pp, made a couple important plays, but he had a whopping 3 blocked shots, 5 "hits" and was a -7. Even strength, he became useless.

When Kevin Sylvester responded to a question of mine, (not that he's an "expert" but he's involved) he mentioned Vanek's accuracy when he does have a shot. When he hits the net, he is very accurate, but oh boy does he need to hit the net. It seems his favorite target is the boards behind the net.

There is a lot to go on about, but the only way to decipher it is to watch his play. And i'm not talking about the youtube videos of him doodling around the Washington defense, or his dipsy around the Philly D in the 2nd to last game (those were both, amazing plays), but instead his actual play in an entire series/game/season.

vanek 4 selke

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I don't disagree with Markus on that assessment.

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Wheelhouse

vanek is alot better defensively then you give him credit for.

"Samsonite? i was way off!"

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Wait, we're criticizing Vanek for not blocking shots? I'll let x-pensfan field that one.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

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Wheelhouse

yes, one play certainly paints vanek as a career poor defensive player.

in game 7, zetterberg made a terrible give away. therefore, i assume he makes terrible give aways every time he touches the puck.

fact: vanek isnt going to win the selke, but hes average to above average defensively. id even dare say hes one of the sabres better defensive forwards, certainly in their top 6.

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Well no but I guess this is our point. And i'm saying this in the most unbiased way possible, why is Vanek exempt from blocking shots and throwing hits or standing up for teammates?

Like someone said earlier in this thread, how can you base a player's salary on stats alone? If that were true, why would teams have scouting departments?

Like some people have said in this forum, why is Miller exempt as well from criticism? He shouldn't be. Now my opinions vary on him and I believe he's a great person and a well above average goaltender, but ANY player in this league is allowed criticism. They get paid the big bucks, they can handle it. That's part of sports. If you think its not, ask the Yankees.

If a player like Rivet had played for us in the playoffs, and had been a -7 as Vanek was, an entire shitstorm would have come down on him.

To be honest, there is not a lot of merit to Vanek being "average" or "above average" anywhere in the defensive scheme of hockey. He doesn't block shots, he doesn't hit, he doesn't fight (not talking about fighting 1 on 1, just talking about pushing someone or letting them know it's not acceptable, IE when Pommers got SLASHED in our own crease after the play, Vanek just stood there and went "hmmm") and he doesn't make any outstanding defensive plays.

As for his backchecking. It has improved a ton. Early on in his career, no one could have been happy with the display he put on, but now, he does a LOT better at following the play. He still doesn't use his body for defensive positioning, but atleast he's in that half of the rink now.

And Irony, i'm not trying to be on one side of the other, but the video Adam posted is just one example, yes, but as for his "awesomeness" another user may post him destroying washington's defense, and the Philly D, and claim he "always does that" in a sarcastic tone.

Every single player in the NHL has a fault. (except maybe Datsyuk) and some players just may have them more than others.

Edit: and as for that video, HOLY FUCK BUTLER

the notion that vanek is a liability defensively doesnt have any merit. hes not the best defensively, buts, like i said, average, and maybe even slightly above average.

there are far more worthless players who players who play for the sabres, offensively, and defensively.

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If Craig Rivet had scored 5 goals and went -7, I think most people would be OK with that.

Again, I'll make my handy little Thomas Vanek Priority Chart.

1. Score goals.
2. Assist on goals.
3. Play defense.

Harping on Vanek because he doesn't play enough defense for you is just nitpicking. Harping on him for blocked shots is even more silly.

Star players are often told not to mix it up often, if ever, to let guys like McCormick and Kaleta and Gaustad handle it.



That's the worst comparison you could have made since 90% of Rivet's job is keeping the puck out of our net. Not the case with Vanek.



With Vanek playing as injured as he often is, it's probably a good idea to not mix it up unless absolutely necessary. That's giving the opposition and an excuse to go after one of his many nagging injuries and take our best goal scorer after the lineup. Vanek loves the dirty play in front of the net, I don't think we need to question his toughness. But if you want to, Vanek has had plenty of moments in which he's gotten ornery with opposing players. Not a lot, but plenty.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

Looks like a communication issue to me. Perhaps Vanek should have just chipped that puck up the boards, but Vanek doesn't have eyes on the back of his head, Butler and Kaleta have to help him out.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

Nobody here thinks he has to do better than this? Really?

Does anyone here legitimately think that Vanek's performance was good enough to lead this team to a Stanley Cup?

He can't be a one trick pony. You have to cover all of your bases to win a cup.

He did some really good things this series. 5 goals is a great number.

But I'm sure he isn't satisfied with his own +/- stat and I don't know why anyone else here should be either.

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Wheelhouse

Ok I don't really disagree with any of what you guys said, i've just realized we see the game a little differently.

Like I play in a pickup crappy amateur league right now, and i'm not the greatest goal scorer, but if I were to pop 5 goals in and not play physical at all and end up a -7 for a stretch of games, people would most certainly be barking at me.

He is still a hockey player. He may be paid the big bucks to score the goals, but most players in this league have a secondary skill. If Vanek has one, it's screening the goalie, for sure. I'd just like to see him be a little more complete than what some people are ok with.

I think some of you see this game as a little more football like, where a player plays only offense or only defense. To me (as in my opinion, not a fact) every single time you are on the ice, you are as responsible for defense as you are for offense, regardless of you being a forward.

Now he's not Stamkos, or any of the guys that actually on merit get paid to be "scorers only"

Most scorers in this league CAN have a mean streak or hitting agenda or another physical element to their game. I guess the argument is Vanek does not. Some see that as ok, others not.

Also: This to me seems like the Herb Brooks thing. You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone. He isn't Crosby, Ovie and Stamkos, which i'm not even comparing him to. But he can't be so one dimensional.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't want better. The initial argument was whether Vanek was adequately paid, which most people seem to think he is, or close to it.



Kind of immaterial, pretty much no one's was, hency why they lost.




I love the +/- stat, but I really hate it with a small sample size because I think it's very misleading as is the case here. One of those minuses came when Butler lost the puck completely on his own behind the net. Definitely not a reflection on Vanek's play at all, and there are other goals that Vanek was on the ice for where there was really nothing he could do.

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