I don't see anyone defending the super rich really.

I'm picking on the protesters because they make it easy.

If they want change, this isn't how to do it.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

So government pressure on the banks to make loans to people who had no chance to ever make good. That's capitalism manipulating the government? The government forcing banks to take the bailout money, whether they needed it (or even wanted it) or not, that's capitalism manipulating the government?

I'm sorry, capitalism is just allowing people to behave naturally and pursue things that are in their own best interest. Government manipulation is when people who think they're smarter than everyone else believe they can legislate in such a fashion as to protect people from failure, pain, etc. and get blindsided when real people act in a way they didn't predict. So they enact further laws, rules and regulations to modify that unwanted behavior only to lead to further unintended consequences.

Ham

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Do you believe yet?

If you could only chose one, a non-capitalist democratic society or a non-democratic capitalist society, which would you chose?

When I say capitalist I mean the unrestrained capitalism of the type the tea party and Ron Paul folks would want, not the regulated, mixed economy capitalism of many of the countries of Europe.

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th' only knower of th' cosmic mysteries alive at this time

So things are no better today in this country than they were 31 years ago? Really? No new medications/medical procedures? No advances in technology that make life better? What kind of skewed prism are you viewing this world through?

Oh yeah, it's everything only in comparison to those who are doing the best. If some rich fuck can make $100 billion dollars with some innovative product/service, but it makes my life a little bit better, I'm in favor of it, even though the "gap between the haves and have-nots" has grown. What the fuck do I care if this jerkoff can buy himself a small country, but my new plasma TV is cheaper and more reliable? Get off the class warfare kick.

Reminds me of the Obama interview where he was speaking of some tax increase. The interviewer noted that some said tax revenues would actually go down thereby providing less funds for those he was trying to help. He asked Obama how he reconciled himself with that. Obama stated he would still support it on the grounds of fairness. Fairness. Yeah, it'll hurt everyone, but it'll hurt the rich more, so that makes it a good thing. This just shows how intellectually void this type of position is. It's screw the rich, make everyone feel better via schadenfreude, even though their life is, in reality, more shitty. So long as they feel like someone else is getting it worse, they'll continue to give us their support at the ballot box.

Obama's not looking to help the middle class or the working man or anyone other than himself and his cronies. No, he's looking to "punish his enemies", meaning anyone who has success outside the reach of the government. But keep swallowing their BS. Your food and gas will get expensive. Innovation will stagnate as we constantly punish anyone trying to make something out of a new idea. But hey, we'll really stick it to those corporate jet CEOs, so life will really be great. You can smile to yourself as your family cracks open their family size can of ALPO for dinner.

Ham

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Do you believe yet?

When the banks flat out lie and say that they're all on the brink of failure, then turn around and give bailout money as BONUSES, you're fucking right it is.

Your glorious captains of capitalism worked the United States government into giving them free loan money they could use to recoup their losses from their mistakes on housing securities.

Choose for what goal? To live in? To start a business? To get free stuff?

I believe our version of the capitalist system is the best.
It has created more wealth than any other in the history of mankind.
It has generated more innovation and scientific advancement than any other in the history of mankind.

Go ahead and criticize flaws...they ALL have flaws, but capitalism, on it's face, is not the cause of the "economic injustices" or income inequality some are complaining about.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

You're totally right. And it's worked because there's has been a good balance between letting private industry doing whatever the hell they want, and the government running the show.

The idea that business should be allowed to run free and will self police itself is complete horseshit. Too much government regulation is bad, but so is not enough.

Paging Barney Frank to the white courtesy phone....Mr. Frank you're wanted on line 1.

Because getting more people into home ownership is a good thing...

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Hold my beer and watch this...

OK, we're both agreeing here.
Where I'm stuck is I objectively see both major political parties complicit in the disaster that is our economy, yet a vast majority of the protesters do not.

They also hate corporations for being greedy (exxon) and love them for being awesome (apple).

So for these reasons I cannot take them seriously.

So I mock them...that's how I roll.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

You have no idea what I mean, this right here proves it. I live in plenty of luxury, I'm not looking for someone else's. What I'm looking to do is be able to pay my bills, maybe be able to send any kids we might have to college. 31 years ago, those were reasonable, and attainable goals. Now, the average person's salary is worth LESS adjusted for inflation. Education and healthcare costs have skyrocketed, and benefits have been gutted. Don't talk to me about class warfare, because unless you're Terry Pegula, the class I'm fighting for is YOURS. Feel free to trade your future opportunities for for yourself and your kids for a cheaper plasma TV, but don't judge me by that standard because that's not what I'm after.

Stuuuuuuu

The corporation I work for contributes heavily to my independent retirement savings and have voluntarily increased my salary and benefits beyond the rate inflation for the last 10 years.

I'm going to assume I'm not alone. The tidy narrative of "the middle class is getting screwed from the top down by corporate profiteers" is not an all encompassing dogma.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

heh...just saw this



http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/tea-part ... tea-party/

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Hold my beer and watch this...

Maybe not, but it's more true than that the holy "free market" is bringing the average family the American dream of always leaving your kids with more through nothing but hard work.

We have no free market and never have so I'm not sure how that's the problem.
If we had honest capitalism and a free market, "bad" corporations and their leaders would go out of business and / or go to jail instead of getting bailouts.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

And there never can be a free market in a society where the top 1% of earners control a third of the country's wealth. There can't be a level playing field like that and to me it's a no-brainer that eliminating regulations and writing laws that "promote" business will without fail lead to more and more consolidation of wealth.

There will never be a level playing field. There will always be winners and losers. Just because a person or corporation is highly successful does not mean they achieved success at the expense of their fellow man.

If the OWS protesters want to re-instate Glass-Stegal or strengthen the SEC, they should vote for, and get their friends to vote for politicians who will do those things.

and FWIW, the 1% paid 38% of all Federal income taxes last year.
The top 10% accounted for 70% or revenue.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

This gentleman is correct. We have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. The reason we have lost so much of our GDP and jobs is due to corporations once based in the United States moving overseas. And it is not just taxes that scare these companies. The EPA is almost single handidly the determning factor for most, if not all, companies moving. Those people complaining about the poor getting poorer fail to realize that because of government regulations we are losing tens of thousands of jobs. Those jobs that would otherwise belong to blue collar workers.

well, as a socialist.....

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This is the biggest pile of horseshit in the entire thread. The EPA? How about the fact that these corporations can pay about a tenth of the labor costs in those others countries? Ever think that might be reason? And that the deregulation you have a hard-on for went hand-in-hand with all those jobs going overseas?