sorry, but Americans deserve to be able to live on their salary, and if their job is to work a machine press, they should be making enough to live. there aren't enough white collar jobs for everyone.

Why are you sorry? Enough to live doesn't mean cozy salary and full benefits. Enough to live means being able to pay for an apt and food and clothing. Almost anything more is not a necessity. If it is, live with someone else to split costs. If you can't become marketable enough to make more and have things like your own house, good car, stupIdphone, etc, that's not anybody's "fault".

I tend to agree with this. Entry level jobs are not supposed to be high paying or jobs that you make a living from. There is also an excess supply of entry level workers and that's going to mean a low price. It's simple economics.

You can't find happiness with "Enough to live means being able to pay for an apt and food and clothing. Almost anything more is not a necessity."

EVERYONE deserves to be happy.

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Hmmm, not really. 1st, "happiness" is subjective. But let's say happiness for everyone means their own house, nice car and TV, blah blah. Why does anyone actually "deserve" that stuff? You deserve what you work hard enough to obtain fairly and legally. Life isn't going to be absolutely fair in return, so that means also being able to manuever around adversity to get where you want to be. In the end, people have to hold themselves accountable for where they are, at least in a free society (which we ARE indeed living in). None of us have been born into a communist rock quarry eating bugs and sleeping on dirt, so...

Side note - I have a number of luxury items that, although not quite very "luxurious", I consider to be unnecessary based on my modest upbringing. I continue to remind myself not to rely on these things (such as NHL Center Ice) for my happiness. If I can't be happy during a 40 hr work week going for a hike with nothing more than some simple clothes and a sandwich to eat when I get back, I'm doing something wrong.

I didn't say you fucking deserve a house, car, and TV. You deserve to be treated fairly, with dignity, and with respect. Despicable wages and exorbinant costs for things LIKE health care are, to me, as disgraceful as it would be to catch some dude's load on my face for a couple dollars.

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this entry level worker bull shit is a fabrication made up by our parents generation because they pushed all of our generation to go to college when a) it isn't necessary and b) not everyone is meant to go to college.

companies don't want to spend a couple months training, so they basically come up with this as a solution. then all the job got cut a couple years ago, and suddenly all the "entry level jobs" require 5 years experience or a master's degree or something way over the top because companies were taking advantage of the people out of work and getting super experienced workers for nothing and minimizing the chance they have to train anyone. THAT'S why there's an excess of entry level workers, and it's bullshit that companies are allowed to exploit that. sure, it's simple economics. so was laissez-faire, and that worked for us 99% pretty well.

and what the heck do you mean you shouldn't make a living on an entry level job? are you drunk?

I wasn't talking about out of college entry level jobs, I was referring to jobs like Wal-Mart. Sorry for possibly using the wrong term or not clarifying.

I'm with Pat on this...

My college degree has nothing to do with the job(s) I've held - as a matter of fact, I've never actually gotten a new job while having the degree completed. It's never been a factor.

I do think that a lot of the jobs that don't require any higher education, though, have been outsourced.

Beth - I still believe that someone should be able to earn a living working at Wal-Mart.

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oh well that works. yes i agree. jobs like stocking and cashiering and stuff shouldn't be money to survive on. it should be college and high school kids and stay at home moms or stuff.

sorry if i came off like an asshole. the only jab i made was the drunk comment and i didn't mean it to really offend. good on you for a good response. have a beer.

i think that most jobs that require a master's degree don't require a master's degree at all. and i think that a huge percentage of bachelor's degree jobs could be replaced with associate's degree candidates.

everything is a degree too high.

i can agree with your second statement IF, and ONLY if, the person in question does not have (a lot of) college debt, they are in a supervisory or management position, or the job requires some form of technical expertise (head baker).

Jeremy, I understand where you're coming from, but it's not economically possible for people at Wal-Mart (and all the jobs similar) to earn a good wage because if wages rise, prices will rise as well. It's economically impossible to have everyone earning a "good wage". There will always be a poor working class, even if they're making a minimum of $50000 a year. It will not only raise wages in its sector, but others as well. I would be fucking pissed if I went to school all these years and I worked my ass off to land my first job to get paid the same as a Wal-Mart employee with a high school diploma. That's simply unfair.

And I'm talking like cashiers and stockboys. I do believe that people who work their way up through a company and remain loyal should be rewarded.

I don't think those jobs need to be relegated down; I interpret that as almost saying you're posturing yourself above them, and making them a "lesser-class" citizen. Yeah, they may not be as successful as you, but if they're able to support themselves, who are any of us to judge them? These are the same people that end up on OTHER government aid programs that we bitch about.

Most companies refuse to hire people full-time because of the insurance and other benefits requirements. IMO, a business should have to prioritize people willing to work full time over those who choose to work part time (for example, students and stay at home moms).

Some jobs lend themselves well to part-time employees, like in the food services industry. Others, like retail, can handle full-time shifts. The companies make the financial decision not to hire full time.

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I think degrees are way over-valued as well. That being said, my step-father is the produce department manager for a Tops in Lockport, and my mom is a head baker there. I make more than both of them combined. He has a college degree. They've both worked there for at least 25 years (my mom hit her 25th this year, he's closing in on 30 I think). I feel like there's something wrong with that.

25 years ago, when they started, their wages were enough to afford two cars, buy a house, and raise 4 children.

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I agree, it pisses me off when I see an entry level/engineer 1 job on a job board that wants 3-5 years of experience. What the fucking fuck?

Or when I see a company trying to hire a project manager...uh, you don't have competent people within that you can promote? Must suck to work for your shit ass company. Oh we have plenty of people that have spent years with us learning our procedures and becoming familiar with our clients...but none of them are qualified to be a project manager. Fuck. You.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

No, but you didn't clarify at all, so I took one example. What's a despicable wage to you? Does it depend on the work? What's exhorbitant for health care? IMO, a certain level of healthcare is not something people necessarily "deserve". Anyone can go to the hospital and get treated for emergency problems, but after that none of us really have a "right" to any specific level of care. We all have to obtain what we want with careful choices and effort to pay for it. We can complain about bad examples of healthcare all we want (I'm sure there's lots to choose from), but we aren't in Cambodia getting acclimated to a bi-monthly bout of malaria either.

I wasn't trying to say that someone who gets a college education should be paid the same as someone without one, just that they should be able to afford to live. I think that corporate greed and profit margins drive the ratio more than anything, and that's a radical idea that I throw around in my head sometimes - regulating a profit margin to ensure fair wages...

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yes that's the beauty of regulated capitalism. there are differences in pay for different jobs. someone stocking shelves or ringing up sales should not be making as much as i do. they have no special niche, other than they work there. i'm not saying i'm better than them as a person. but there should be classes of wealth, just the gap shouldn't grow exponentially.

sounds like this happened to you. PM's are tough to promote from within because a lot of people don't want to be one. the variability in work load can be insane...and if things slow down you're one of the first to go. plus unless you get someone to train another person, it's hard to learn how to be a PM. there's a lot of new details with that job, even just one tier below that, and it would take a year or more of random training to really learn how to be a PM. remember, they don't usually only have one project at a time. companies don't train anymore. that's a huge problem.

right, but that's a job where you really don't have to adapt to too much. after a while you don't get more money for doing the same job. produce comes in, it sells, you restock, etc, etc. (yes i know there's more to it, but you know what i mean). so here is where we disagree. each one of them hold a position, though, that they should make enough to live by themselves fairly comfortably- i'm talkin 35-50k. i don't like tops as a company, so if they don't make that, it sucks. but 16-18 bucks an hour for that sort of position shouldn't be considered crazy.