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Squanto
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Sk8haggard9 wrote:
Obviously he can't see whats right for the party.


Fuck what's right for the party.

How about a politician that does what's right for the state?


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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
People don't understand the laws involved.

The Buffalo Creek treaty of 1842 says that the Senecas will not be taxed by the NY government. The state IS NOT TRYING TO TAX THE SENECA PEOPLE.

Under existing NYS tax law, if you buy something outside of NYS, and bring it into NYS, you're supposed to pay taxes on that. This is a commonly ignored law, but it's a law regardless.

For example, let's say you go to PA, and purchased a TV at a 0% tax sale. You take that TV back to your home in NY. By law, you're required to pay NY state sales tax on that TV even though you didn't buy it in NY.

Now, almost nobody actually claims this and pays the tax. I'm sure some businesses do, because of the volume of goods they move, but most individuals don't.

Let's turn to tobacco. We all know that the state taxes the snot out of tobacco products. When you go to a reservation, you don't pay that tax. Remember that the reservations are technically sovereign territory, and thusly NOT part of NYS. So, you're purchasing a product outside of NY (on the res) and bringing it back into NY. By definition, you're supposed to claim that on your taxes, and pay the tax that you didn't pay on the reservation. Obviously, nobody does this.

So, the state passed a law that says Native American tobacco retailers are required to collect these unpaid taxes from anyone who isn't a registered Native American. They basically said "Well, we can't enforce our own tax laws, so we want you do."

THAT is the crux of the problem. At no time are Native Americans being taxed, or any parts of the Buffalo Creek treaty being violated. The Senecas know that their rights are not being infringed, but they know if non-Native Americans are forced to pay taxes on gas/tobacco (that they are legally required to anyways), they'll lose their competitive advantage in those markets. They also object (and rightfully so) to being a tax collection arm for the NY government.

They can scream about honoring treaties all they want, but this has nothing to do with sovereignty rights. It's 100% about maintaining their competitive advantage in the tobacco and petroleum markets.

Excellent post, Squanto (or should we call you Tisquantum?).

Since Indian tribes are treated as quasi-nations, my question for Gov. P is will he also force Canada to collect sales tax for NY, as well? Lots of folks go there and purchase goods and services (including health care and prescriptions) and they probably don't pay NY tax on those items.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Gov. Paterson doesn't need a threat assessment...he'd never see it coming anyway.


Sk8haggard9 wrote:
All Patterson is going to do by not stepping down is waste money and split the party. Obviously he can't see whats right for the party.


I guess we're the only childish ones around here....oh well, rest assured, I saw what you did there ;)

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Sk8haggard9
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:44 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
Sk8haggard9 wrote:
Obviously he can't see whats right for the party.


Fuck what's right for the party.

How about a politician that does what's right for the state?


wait..... those exist? lol :character-grover: (this was supposed to be one of those finger touch mouth thinking smilies from hfboards.... but I couldn't find one and grover caught my attention lol)


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Sk8haggard9
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Gov. Paterson doesn't need a threat assessment...he'd never see it coming anyway.


Sk8haggard9 wrote:
All Patterson is going to do by not stepping down is waste money and split the party. Obviously he can't see whats right for the party.


I guess we're the only childish ones around here....oh well, rest assured, I saw what you did there ;)


haha yeah.... we're so going to hell... but its totally worth it :dance:


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Oh and Squanto...I hear you loud and clear but it's the same net effect.

They can't make a living selling taxless gas to other natives...they'd be ruined...again.

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:49 pm 
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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Oh and Squanto...I hear you loud and clear but it's the same net effect.

They can't make a living selling taxless gas to other natives...they'd be ruined...again.


Or just ruined worse than they already are... The statistics really are incredible.

I'm going to again work with children on another reservation this summer, though, and I can't wait... But, wow.

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Sk8haggard9
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:38 pm 
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rbochan wrote:
Squanto wrote:
Sk8haggard9 wrote:
Obviously he can't see whats right for the party.


Fuck what's right for the party.

How about a politician that does what's right for the state?

At this particular junction, I'd take a politician that was ACTUALLY FUCKING ELECTED.


The more I learn about politics and history, the more I realize how fucked up the United States political system really is in some regards.


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ItsMe
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:05 pm 
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The way I see it is:
1. If the state wants to collect taxes, set up booths outside the reservations and collect it. (wont happen)

2. To reduce some of the increasing debt, cut some of the useless government officials

3. cut NYC lose and let the feds take care of it. Those same useless officials are continually trying to find ways to funnel our money there.

4. I understand that the Indians are not being taxed, but they are not selling products on NYS regulated land, why should they be responsible? As soon as they accept that responsibility, they fall under NYS jurisdiction and therefore penalties instituted by NYS for the collection of those taxes. Say one of them doesnt return those taxes, the state could attach the property of the reservation....another treaty broken since the state now owns Indian property.....

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Last edited by ItsMe on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dontbethatguy
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Good luck getting the reservations to collect NY taxes. Yeah that will go over well. For his next magic trick he'll force other states and Canada to do the same. I've seen this act before, I'm gonna go scratch myself in inappropriate places and come back for the grand finale.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:23 pm 
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    Indians have the highest poverty and unemployment rates in the United States of America (25% unemployed, which is Great Depression levels).

    Indians have less than half the income of the general U.S. population.

    Only 30% of Indians have health insurance.

    Indian men die at a rate greater than any other demographic in America.
But we are going to get them to collect taxes to bail out New York state? Yeah, let me know how that works out.

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Hammygoodness
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:51 pm 
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[quote="Godzilla1960"]Indian men die at a rate greater than any other demographic in America.
[quote]

Hmm. I'm thinking it's hard to die at a greater rate than 100%.

Ham

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mechaphil
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:58 pm 
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Hahaha @Ham

He meant that if you put the male death rate of the NA up against any other demographic's male death rate, the NA rate would eclipse the other.

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PuckSniperPensel
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:22 am 
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Tax the distributer who sells to the reservations.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:16 pm 
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PuckSniperPensel wrote:
Tax the distributer who sells to the reservations.

Again, that would have the same net effect of making indian gas the same price and killing their business.


How about this idea.
QUESTION YOUR POLITICIANS about why they need more tax revenue.
Are you guys not taxed enough in NY?
Are they already spending what they seize from you wisely?

Leave the Indians alone.

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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
    Indians have the highest poverty and unemployment rates in the United States of America (25% unemployed, which is Great Depression levels).

    Indians have less than half the income of the general U.S. population.

    Only 30% of Indians have health insurance.

    Indian men die at a rate greater than any other demographic in America.
But we are going to get them to collect taxes to bail out New York state? Yeah, let me know how that works out.


And one in six teenagers have attempted suicide, and the rate of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is thirty times greater than all other races combined, and so on and so forth. It never ends. Also, a lot of reservations have unemployment rates of 70%+, and on the ones I've seen, people live in clapboard houses without electricity. Not all of them do, but about 40%... which is just ridiculous. And the kids... Oh, they're so starved for love. Oh my gosh. They jump all over you and pull you to the ground and give you eight thousand hugs because they never get that at home, and they'll openly tell you they wish their daddy loved them and cry because he doesn't. And all the twenty-year-olds that look forty, and the people that come by knowing you're from out of town and have food, asking you for a meal, and the beer bottles and drug needles all over the ground... Those reservations are the most depressing places in the world, I swear.

Sorry for contributing so much; I kind of love those people, and they have nothing and are caught in this huge cyclical mess, and the state only cares about them when they can be exploited.

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Sabres2Sabres
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:40 am 
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acrossthelines wrote:

Sorry for contributing so much; I kind of love those people, and they have nothing and are caught in this huge cyclical mess, and the state only cares about them when they can be exploited.


I don't want to come across as a jerk or anything, because it is a shame what condition most of them live in, but I do take issue with that statement. The state shouldn't care about them. If the Indians want to claim sovereignty, they shouldn't get any benefits from the government either.

What's really sad is that the Senecas have more than enough money in their tribe to provide for everyone. Except most of it is in the hands of Barry Snyder et al.


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Markus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:07 am 
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One of my best friends is a Native American and we have talked about this for months.

I do agree we should leave them alone...BUT...

Tax the crap out of cigs. It isn't gas. We don't need it. It's a temptation, not a solid product of the USA.

Keep gas low. I am all for the reservation having cheaper gas...it's watered down as it is! (lol)

But seriously, I love Seneca Nation pride. Atleast some people are proud of nationality...


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acrossthelines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:41 am 
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Sabres2Sabres wrote:
I don't want to come across as a jerk or anything, because it is a shame what condition most of them live in, but I do take issue with that statement. The state shouldn't care about them. If the Indians want to claim sovereignty, they shouldn't get any benefits from the government either.

What's really sad is that the Senecas have more than enough money in their tribe to provide for everyone. Except most of it is in the hands of Barry Snyder et al.


Oh, you're not coming across as a jerk at all.

I agree that the state should not care about them, but they do... when they can benefit from them in some way. Other than that, they do not. Can't have it both ways.

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