Reasonable reply- I pulled those names out of a hat. My point being, do other team's fans regularly bad-mouth their coach? Are Buffalo fans abnormal in this respect or not?

I take it you've never been to hf boards. It makes this seem like a library. People are borderline criminally insane there. You could probably find posters bitching about Stamkos there.

I think all that great BC bud is easing his aching body.

+1

Anyone remember Steve Bernier's Buffalo debut?

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"I'll rap you with my cane; you pencil necked geek!!"

-Bowler, imitating Freddy Blassie, at the very first M & G.

WELCOME TO BUFFALO STEVE BERNIER

not to mention he wasn't the only traded player to have a good first game. dainus zubrus is another.

I believe it was 2 goals, in a .....(racking brain) 3 - 1 victory?

Adam struggled before his demotion. That's why he was demoted. He stopped putting up points between Vanek and Pominville, and his defensive side of the game was terrible. Sometimes, rookies lose their way in the NHL and need to be sent back down. He'll still blossom into a great player. Just needed more time.




Why would it be Ruff's fault that Kassian didn't want to do what he was told? You don't have proof that he's going to work out in Vancouver, either, so this remains to be seen.



Before Vancouver, the kid hadn't been on the ice for a goal against for 7 games in a row, and was contributing offensively. I wouldn't exactly call that leveling off. He's played good hockey, and he didn't even get AHL experience. His professional hockey career began with Lindy Ruff. I'd say he's been a pretty good player under Ruff's tenure.



He's been our most consistent defensemen all season long. He's playing in a shut down pair with Regehr. How has he need turned into the defensemen he was supposed to be? Because his point totals are down? Look at the whole roster.



Didn't have his first full season with Ruff until the 02-03 season. Had 19 points in 65 games. Two years later, he had 44 points in 75 games. Seems like Ruff did a pretty good job with him. In fact, I distinctly remember people being pissed with Ruff for giving him ice time because he was horrible defensively. But Ruff stuck with him and kept playing him, and he ended up turning into one of the best offensive defensemen in the NHL.



If by very good, you mean "a first round pick that scores about the same amount of points as Gaustad." Here are his point totals with the Bruins:

74 games, 19 points.
43 games, 13 points.
59 games, 14 points.



That ticked me off, but when Gragnani started sucking, he gave Weber his shot, and now he's playing great hockey, just like he did last season. If Weber is playing solid hockey, how has Ruff failed to develop him?



Young defensemen struggle at times. He played some good hockey here. If he had stayed with us, he could have ended up playing pretty well again. But we had a shot at Robyn Regehr. It was kind of a no brainer.

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Wheelhouse

@ Sabres 1980...So I guess Ruff did a bad job with Vanek, Pominville, and Miller too.

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"...they came down into the stands and asked if I knew how to do play by play. I said...No. But. I'll take a shot at it if you want".- Rick Jeanneret

PSP-
Well this keeps dragging on. I'm not going to bother countering any of that. We can argue different shades of gray all day long and it won't change a thing.

All I'm saying is that there's been enough examples to eventually question Ruff's role in developing young players. Nitpick all you want and dissect it to the Nth degree, because I'm not claiming proof of anything, just a possible trend. I've been a long-time fan of Ruff as HC, defended him lots of times, but even I start to question things after so many disappointing seasons.

Los9090-
Obviously I didn't mention Miller or Pominville, but yes Vanek as had quite a time being in and out of Ruff's doghouse. I think he's too talented to not produce, but I still think he could produce more somewhere else. That's not saying much because we can say the same about a lot of players, but I'm not holding Vanek up as a great example of anything. In fact, as I've already said, I'm not holding anybody up as proof of anything. Ugh, it's like whatever I type is almost purposely misunderstood.

OK, let's analyze Miller, Pominville, and Vanek.

Miller: head coaches don't coach goalies. That was quick.

Pominville: Ya, Lindy sure did teach him how to rack up those assists with Briere. Great job boss.
disclaimer: pommers is great this year, but truth be told, he's a 20-25 goal scorer with good line mates(many tip-ins). On a second line with average players, he's average. Did Ruff get more out of him than expected? Probably, so ok, I'll grant this one to avoid flaming.

Vanek: The guy came into the league a goal-scorer, and now he's a "more complete player". Can I have my goal-scorer back please?


Bottom line: ALL our players are having a simultaneous bad year, except the one guy who LR doesn't coach. Hmph. The playoff round win drought is getting pretty damn thirsty. I don't care, defend the guy all ya want, but I want some results. When ya spend the most cash, and still suck, there's a problem. I don't think it's ALL the players.

You realize Pominville's best season statistically came after Briere and Drury left, right? He had 80 points in 07-08... 27 goals and 53 assists.

Did you know that Jason Pominville is one of only 6 players in the NHL currently playing to have 50 plus points six years in a row?

As far as Vanek is concerned... last season, Vanek only fell 11 points short of his best season in 06-07 with two fewer games played.

This year, he's on pace for his career worst. Still, Vanek is now the 7th on the Sabres all time goal scoring list, so it's a little crazy to argue that Ruff hasn't done a good job developing his talent.

Ruff has his flaws, but developing young talent aint one of them

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Wheelhouse

I conceded Pominville, so that's moot, but I did point out he's mostly a helper guy, which can be suspect.

Vanek is a goal-scorer. I want him to remain one. Ruff didn't "develop" that. In fact, it's laughable to say he did. He's the one who held him out of the playoffs for being too much of a pure scorer.

NHL coaches aren't usually young talent developers(they're busy guys). That happens in the A. What happens with vet players up here is more his responsibility, and he's failed with almost all of them this year. Boyes and Leino grossly so. If ya want to start throwing old stats around, I'll throw some old Boyes stats at ya, and say, "wtf happened".

daz28-
I have gotten the impression that you will settle for nothing but the best, out of everyone, all the time. No player can have a less than freaking awesome year, or else it is Ruff's fault. "Good" is not good enough for you. I personally do not know anyone who is at the absolute top of their game at all times...
I have formed an opinion of you wherein you have some unrealistic expectations. Luckily you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

BTW, in the spirit of full disclosure, I am female. And I really don't care if folks still call me a guy- the name I chose IS gender-neutral.

Please throw Boyes stats at me, because if you take a look at his career, he significantly regressed in points 3 years in a row with St. Louis before he was traded to Buffalo.

Ruff developed Vanek into an NHL player. He was a goal scorer before, but he had to learn to play a two way game, because he was a liability on the ice without doing so.

Look at Ilya Kovalchuk. He was a pure goal scorer for years, but never won anything worth while because no coach ever had the nads to bench him and teach him the right way to play.

Now that he's in New Jersey, he's got coaches who are forcing him to commit to the other side of the game, and he's playing good hockey.

That's why Vanek's stats last season are more impressive than they were in the 07 season that he score 11 points more; because he did it while being focused on his game away from the puck as well.

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Wheelhouse

Look PSP, if you're happy with the trajectory of Vanek, then that's dandy. I'm not satisfied that a guy who looked to be a 40+ scorer is now looking to be a hopeful 30 player.

Um, Boyes had 41 in 62 last year with STL. This year is 16 in 50. There is a down trend in just about every player on the team. LeRoy mystery illness, or shall we wait for Ted Black's newest diagnosis. I don't care if you like Ruff or not, and seeing you like to sit in front of a stat sheet, and create an argument around it, I can't understand how you support this coach. Almost all the players are playing like shit, and we haven't been a serious playoff threat in a while. Are you preaching patience too??????

Nuthatch: the best ALL the time?
07-08: no playoffs
08-09: no playoffs
09-10: 3rd seed, bumped by 6th seed in 1st round.
10-11: 8th seed bumped after holding a 3-2 series advantage in 1st round.
11-12: Ryan Miller is personally holding us on by a thread to make 8th.

That's 5 years of hoping for the best.

I think it was a part of all three. He was what on there second line in Van compared to 4th line here? His lines pretty awesome Booth, Kessler and Kassian. That's a huge bruising/scoring line. Obviously he'd wanna prove himself to the team who traded him away a mere 5 days before but he's a very skilled forward and I still believe we lost out on that deal.

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"If you want to know what I've been doing lately, I've been driving around from Tim Horton's to Tim Horton's, rolling up the rim. Haven't won anything yet. Thanks." - Lindy Ruff

Nuthatch: the best ALL the time?
07-08: no playoffs
08-09: no playoffs
09-10: 3rd seed, bumped by 6th seed in 1st round.
10-11: 8th seed bumped after holding a 3-2 series advantage in 1st round.
11-12: Ryan Miller is personally holding us on by a thread to make 8th.

That's 5 years of hoping for the best.

Sorry daz28, I'm missing your point. I see that you have the Sabres season end points listed, but what does that have to do with what I posted? Honest confusion on my part...

You think I settle for nothing but the best, and that I have unrealistic expectations.

I was just pointing out that if that's the best Ruff can do, then I won't settle for that.

My expectations are to win a cup, and that doesn't seem very realistic with the production Ruff is getting from the highest paid roster in hockey.

Fair enough. Thanks for the expanded version.

So, is it your contention that poor play is TOTALLY Ruff's fault? Do you assign no responsibility to the individual player to play his best, regardless of the coach he's playing for? It seems to be in the player's best interest to always do the best he can. If nothing else, this will increase or at least maintain his value for the next contract.