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End The Curse
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:56 pm 
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FYI...

Quote:
Treating seniors as 'clunkers'

By BETSY MCCAUGHEY
Posted: 12:45 AM, October 27, 2009

Everyone knows that if you don't pay to maintain and repair your car, you limit its life. The same is true as human beings age. We need medical care to avoid becoming clunkers -- disabled, worn out, parked in wheelchairs or nursing homes.

For nearly a half century, Medicare has enabled seniors to get that care. But ObamaCare is about to change that, by limiting what doctors can provide their aging patients.

The Senate Finance Committee health bill released last week controls doctors by cutting their pay if they give older patients more care than the government deems appropriate. Section 3003(b) (p. 683) punishes doctors who land in the 90th percentile or above on what they provide for seniors on Medicare by withholding 5 percent of their compensation.

This withhold provision forces doctors to choose between treating their patients and avoiding government penalties. HMOs used the same cost-cutting device in the early '90s until it was deemed dangerous to patients and outlawed. Now, lawmakers want to use it against the most vulnerable patients, the elderly. This bill and four others under negotiation also would slash about $500 billion from future Medicare funding.

President Obama and his budget director, Peter Orszag, have told seniors not to worry, claiming that Medicare spending could be cut by as much as 30 percent without doing harm. They cite the Dartmouth Atlas of Healthcare 2008, which tries to prove patients who get less care -- fewer hospital days, doctors' visits and imaging tests -- have the same medical "outcomes" as patients who get more care. But read the fine print.

The Dartmouth authors arrived at their dubious conclusion by restricting their study to patients who died. They examined what Medicare paid to care for these chronically ill patients in their last two years. By definition, the outcomes were all the same: death. The Dartmouth study didn't consider patients who recovered, left the hospital and even resumed active lives. It would be important to know whether these patients survived because they received more care.

The journal Circulation addresses that question in its latest issue (Oct. 16) and disputes the Dartmouth conclusion. Examining patients with heart failure at six California teaching hospitals, doctors found that hospitals giving more care saved more lives. In hospitals that spent less, patients had a smaller chance of survival. That's the opposite of what Obama is claiming and Congress is proposing. The Senate Finance bill establishes a formula that penalizes hospitals for high "Medicare spending per beneficiary" (Section 2001, p. 643). That may save money, but the California study suggests it will cost lives.

When Medicare started in 1965, the law forbade the federal government from interfering in treatment decisions. Doctors decided what patients needed, and Medicare paid for each treatment on a fee-for-service basis. Though this protection from government interference has been whittled away a bit, doctors and patients in Medicare still decide what state-of-the-art medical care they want.

The results are huge improvements in longevity and seniors' quality of life. Life expectancy at age 65 has jumped from 79 years to 84, while disability has steadily declined. Seniors enjoy more active lives than their parents owing to hip and knee replacements, angioplasty and bypass surgery, according to James Lubitz and Ellen Kramarow of the National Center for Health Statistics (Health Affairs, Sept./Oct. 2007). Obama adviser Dr. David Cutler reports that the heart medications and procedures Medicare patients have received over the last 20 years have been a "wise investment" resulting in "excellent value" (Health Affairs, Jan./Feb. 2007).

Cuts in future Medicare funding -- what Obama calls "savings" -- will mean less help in coping with aging and possibly shorter lives. Do we really want to treat our seniors like clunkers?

Betsy McCaughey is chairman of the Com mittee to Reduce Infection Deaths .

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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Economically mandated eugenics. I love it.

...not that Medicare was that much bigger a step up. Just saying.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:02 pm 
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McCaughey was skewered by Jon Stewart when she made these claims a month or so ago on his show.

She's been criticized countless times by folks on both sides of the debate for being factually inaccurate and misleading.

She's a non-credible hack.

EDITS:

Politifact analysis of McCaughey's 'death panel' claims:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -be-requi/

Factcheck's analysis of McCaughey's claims from back in Feb 09:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/02/doctors-orders/

Factcheck's analysis of McCaughey's 'death panel' claims:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/false- ... ia-claims/

Factcheck's analysis of McCaughey's criticism of Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/deadly-doctor/


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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:12 pm 
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...it's not the fall that kills one. It's the sudden stop at it's terminus.

The concept of healthcare as a "right" is absurd...but, the concept of a government-mandated, hyper-regulated healthcare system, in which penalties are applied to providers in an effort to maintain a regulatory compliance, is simply negligent homicide disguised as a cost-effective social conscience.

If the government somehow found it necessary to regulate our bladder and bowel movements, people would be dropping dead from bowel disorders and renal failure at a staggering pace.

They can't effectively deliver the fucking mail, with a monopoly in place - What the fuck makes them think they can regulate one's health/life options any better?


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:13 pm 
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Yeah...it would never happen here... :roll:
They only prematurely kill seniors in backwoods places like the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... e-NHS.html

Gimme a break.....this is a zero sum game. If we're going to give health care to all some are going to have it taken away. Plain and simple.
Any form of a public option will slowly twist our system closer and closer to the UK and canadian systems.

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End The Curse
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Ice, if The Party decides to regulate when you are allowed to move your bowels they will be doing it for your own good. If you disagree, it's because you are simply not intelligent enough to understand why it's better, which is exactly why The Party needs to make these decisions for you.

Understand?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.


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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:19 pm 
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The Universal Answer: "Eat Me."


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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:24 pm 
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I, WE, are the government's boss - They serve at OUR pleasure.

And the sooner we learn to remember that, the sooner the fucking bullshit stops.

Far too many cowards. Far too many grifters looking for a free lunch. Far too many weak souls, seeking comfort at the cost of Liberty.


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
.
Any form of a public option will slowly twist our system closer and closer to the UK and canadian systems.

Which for the vast majority would be an improvement. I fail to see the drawback of this statement. And I'm sure you'll come up with some one-of-a-kind story about the failure of one of those country's systems. But may I just say how many Canadians have fled south looking for better medical coverage, as opposed to the number of Americans who have used some aspect of the Canadian system (like prescription drugs) as a cost-saving measure?


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Stuuuuuuu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:28 pm 
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icehound wrote:
I, WE, are the government's boss - They serve at OUR pleasure.

And the sooner we learn to remember that, the sooner the fucking bullshit stops.

I didn't know you worked for the insurance industry.

Hate to tell you Ice, but poll after poll has shown that WE, that is ALL Americans (not just the rich), actually DO want health reform, even a dreaded "public option". I'm so tired of the vocal minority getting all the attention in this debate. Newsflash, IF healthcare reform succeeds, it will be BECAUSE that's what the American people want, because politicians sure as shit don't want it.


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Displaced Fan
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:32 pm 
Stuuuuuuu wrote:
icehound wrote:
I, WE, are the government's boss - They serve at OUR pleasure.

And the sooner we learn to remember that, the sooner the fucking bullshit stops.

I didn't know you worked for the insurance industry.

Hate to tell you Ice, but poll after poll has shown that WE, that is ALL Americans (not just the rich), actually DO want health reform, even a dreaded "public option". I'm so tired of the vocal minority getting all the attention in this debate. Newsflash, IF healthcare reform succeeds, it will be BECAUSE that's what the American people want, because politicians sure as shit don't want it.


:clap:


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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:36 pm 
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icehound wrote:
Far too many cowards. Far too many grifters looking for a free lunch. Far too many weak souls, seeking comfort at the cost of Liberty.


While there are some, it's not everyone.

I make good money. I'm pretty well off. I have employer provided health coverage... AND IT SUCKS. I've been blessed that I haven't had to use it much, but the few times I have, it's been a disaster. I can't even BEGIN to imagine what it would be like if I had a serious illness.

My other choices for coverage are the small private insurances that are prohibitively expensive, and give me LESS coverage for my money. Why would I ever do that?

I'm 31, no major illnesses, no medications, don't smoke. Been to the doctor 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years for minor things (Sprained knee, physicals, shit like that.) I want to pay my premiums, and know that if something ever happens, I can get it taken care of without jeopardizing my house and retirement to pay medical bills.

Give me reform that makes insurance companies treat me like a human being, not a profit center. I'll support that.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Stuuuuuuu wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
.
Any form of a public option will slowly twist our system closer and closer to the UK and canadian systems.

Which for the vast majority would be an improvement. I fail to see the drawback of this statement. And I'm sure you'll come up with some one-of-a-kind story about the failure of one of those country's systems. But may I just say how many Canadians have fled south looking for better medical coverage, as opposed to the number of Americans who have used some aspect of the Canadian system (like prescription drugs) as a cost-saving measure?

I'm not willing to have over 80% of the population suffer a degradation in the health care they like to cover the 14% who aren't covered.

Let me be clear. I want everyone to be covered (The current bill doesn't even do that).

The UK and Canadian systems are failures on many levels that I won't bore you with.

Stay with me here....A public option is NOT necessary to cover everyone.
Broad government control ISN'T necessary to maintain costs and equality.

We need the Swiss health system.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=92106731

People that think government and only government can solve our problems generally work for the government.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... nment.html

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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:38 pm 
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...stu, my friend, call me Jed Clampett: but if it sounds too good to be true it's because it is.

There ain't no such things as a free lunch. If some must eat, others will go hungry.

Centralization and increased structure will always result in greater waste and greater cost - The larger, more complex the machine, the greater overall friction it generates.

All else is a feel-good illusion, used as an influence to direct money and power into a specfic pool of recipients and beneficiaries.

What's next? Calorie-standardized meals, delivered to one's door each day? To ensure no one starves?

Who, among the lazy needs a choice? - Beggars can't be/won't be choosers.

Remember, you arguing with a Canadian, whose mother was on the original Freebie Rollout, in 1973.

Why do YOU think I'm a US citizen, now? Imagine...fool that I am, I could be enjoying "free healthcare"...

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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End The Curse
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Not sure about the majority wanting what was exposed in this article, but if the Ministry of Truth tells us that this is better for us than it must be true. If we are told that we should disregard what seems to be real and accept reality as we are told by the official Party Newspeak, than we should do so for the betterment of society as a whole.

People are living too long. People are getting too old and expensive. We will become a more bountiful and prosperous nation by limiting elderly care, and by limiting elderly care, the elderly will be healthier.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:44 pm 
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End The Curse wrote:
Not sure about the majority wanting what was exposed in this article....


Nothing was 'exposed' in the commentary you posted. McCaughey's claims have been independently rebuked on multiple occasions.


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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
End The Curse wrote:
Not sure about the majority wanting what was exposed in this article....


Nothing was 'exposed' in the commentary you posted. McCaughey's claims have been independently rebuked on multiple occasions.

They didn't have death panels in the UK system either...until they did.

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End The Curse
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Squanto wrote:
End The Curse wrote:
Not sure about the majority wanting what was exposed in this article....


Nothing was 'exposed' in the commentary you posted. McCaughey's claims have been independently rebuked on multiple occasions.

If The Party rebukes the facts gleaned from the bill itself than they must have been lies, and the unperson who spread them needs to be erased. Disloyalty to The Party must not be tolerated.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.


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icehound
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Wow. ETC...have you been rehearsing this?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

...you're slaying me. That's good. Very polished.


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Squanto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:49 pm 
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End The Curse wrote:
If The Party rebukes the facts gleaned from the bill itself than they must have been lies, and the unperson who spread them needs to be erased. Disloyalty to The Party must not be tolerated.


Apparently reasonable discussion with you on anything of a political nature is a futile exercise.

I get the joke man, but it would probably work better on occasion, not every single post.


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