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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:31 pm 
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What are Our First Principles of Health Care?

In the study of law there is a Latin term, ab initio, which means “from the beginning,” used in reference to the legality of contracts or actions dating back to their origins. A woman suing for alimony during a divorce, for example, could find the entire marriage ruled invalid if her husband was previously married, thereby nullifying her marriage contract.

The current health care debate has focused, to a great extent, on the details of this or that plan with very little attention paid to the ab initio philosophy underlying the concept of health care.

What are, as Marcus Aurelius might ask, the first principles of health care delivery? What is our philosophy, as a nation and a people, about how we care for the sick and injured?

To illustrate the importance of first principles allow me to use an example from American history.

In the late 19th century, as the wars against the Native American population were coming to an end, the U.S. Senate turned its attention to assimilating these conquered peoples. Their solution was the Dawes Act, which allotted 160 acres to every Indian male head of household. The Dawes Act was predicated upon a European-American capitalist system in which men and individual families competed for limited resources, one against another. Those who worked the land most effectively reaped the greatest rewards for their labors. By providing farm land for each Indian head of household the Dawes Act hoped to turn the Indian tribes into a series of farm families, assimilated into the general American population.

It proved a dismal failure.

During the nearly 50 years of the Dawes Act two-thirds of Indian lands were lost to European-American speculators. The explanation for this was apparent - the Indian people had some personal or moral failing which resulted in their impoverishment. After all, there were countless examples of this same system of competition and reward working within the European-American community.

Obviously, the Indians were either lazy or unfit to succeed in American society.

However, if we examine the Dawes Act ab initio we see that it was predicated on a fundamental misunderstanding of Indian culture. Native American societies were not set up as a series of individuals in competition with one another, as was European-American society, but rather as communities which co-operated to harvest limited resources. Trying to turn these tribal groups into separate little-house-on-the-prairie farmers was doomed to failure because it failed to understand the first principles of Indian life, which focused on co-operation over competition.

The fault lay, not in some moral failing of the Native American population, but rather in a clash of philosophic principles.

So, what are the first principles of our current system for delivering health care?

We still are operating under the European-American capitalist system, in which the game is set up for winners and losers in the competition for limited resources. When applied to health care this means that those who have the most wealth, get the best health care. And who are the most successful players in this game? As a demographic group they are going to be the oldest members of our society, who have had a lifetime to accumulate wealth. Because the health delivery system is a for-profit system, those who deliver health care services are going to chase limited dollars by going to where they are most plentiful - the elderly.

What does this mean in a practical sense? Those with the dollars are going to get the meds and those without, will not. What is the most expensive year of life? The last year. So, because this is where the money is, hospitals, doctors, drug companies, and everyone who hopes to earn a profit from health care is going to focus time, talent, and resources on those who offer the greatest return on their investment - old, dying people.

Yet, Marcus Aurelius tells us that what is not good for the hive, is not good for the bee. Is it in the best interest of our society to focus our resources on those who have already contributed the most they have to give to that society, while at the same time limiting resources invested to those whose potential for bettering society is still ahead of them?

Every system rations health care. In a world of limited resources there is no other choice. The question is, how (and to whom) will we ration those resources? Does it really make sense that pharmaceutical companies have invested so much money into developing a pill for older men to maintain an erection, while the United States has an infant mortality rate that is an embarrassment to the industrialized world? What does it say about our values that we are 42nd in life expectancy or that 100,000 people die every year because of a lack of medical care? We talk about health care rationing and death panels, yet 27% of health care spending in this nation goes toward only 1% of the population.

Competition or cooperation?

What are the first principles in which we believe when it comes to providing care for the sick and injured? When a member of our family is sick, do we make a choice based on his or her personal wealth? If not, then why do otherwise for the greater community?

What is not good for the hive is not good for the bee.

The ab initio question we must ask ourselves is, do we want a health care system that is designed first to make a profit and which serves the community only as an ancillary benefit or do we expect our health care system to provide for the health of the nation as its first principle?

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Last edited by Godzilla1960 on Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:37 pm 
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You sound all "Death Panel-y" Zilla....you-betcha ;)

Democrats gave us all a pile of crap for Christmas. Mandates, no public option and it adds to the deficit.
Enjoy America!

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:42 pm 
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I appreciate that you don't like the Senate health care bill, Cross. Because it does not address first principles, neither do I.

However, that is not what I was writing about here. However, thank you for taking the time to read my essay. I know it is long.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
However, that is not what I was writing about here.

Right...you're talking about killing grandma.
It's a fine intellectual exercise and I follow your logic. It would never fly...even in a much more "progressive" society.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
However, that is not what I was writing about here.

Right...you're talking about killing grandma.
It's a fine intellectual exercise and I follow your logic. It would never fly...even in a much more "progressive" society.

Forgive me, by why would you stoop to the lazy thinking that is the poison of our current public discourse?

Shall I present supporters of our current health care system as baby killers because we rank 33rd in the world in infant mortality (46th, according to the CIA factbook)? What is the value in reducing such an important issue to a bumper sticker?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Why do you entertain the possibility that euthanasia is a viable health care cost saving measure that should be perused?
Notice I never said your argument wasn't valid...I actually believe it is.
But it's also moot.
Do you honestly think that anything along those lines would ever pass in this country (or any other)?

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Why do you entertain the possibility that euthanasia is a viable health care cost saving measure that should be perused?
Notice I never said your argument wasn't valid...I actually believe it is.
But it's also moot.
Do you honestly think that anything along those lines would ever pass in this country (or any other)?

Who said anything about euthanasia?

My argument was that every health care system must deal with unlimited wants and limited resources (a fundamental first principle of economics). Where do we, as a society, put our resources?

I'm not interested in what will pass Congress. I going to start setting my sights higher than what passes for the current political debate. I'm tired of groveling in the ditch with the dogs of popular infotainment and politics.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:35 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
I'm not interested in what will pass Congress. I going to start setting my sights higher than what passes for the current political debate. I'm tired of groveling in the ditch with the dogs of popular infotainment and politics.[/color]

OK then...if your looking at this from a pie-in-the-sky angle, then I take issue with your premise.

Why do health care resources have to be limited? Why can't a society produce enough to meet the needs of everyone?
In a communist utopia, that should be possible no?

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
I'm not interested in what will pass Congress. I going to start setting my sights higher than what passes for the current political debate. I'm tired of groveling in the ditch with the dogs of popular infotainment and politics.[/color]

OK then...if your looking at this from a pie-in-the-sky angle, then I take issue with your premise.

Why do health care resources have to be limited? Why can't a society produce enough to meet the needs of everyone?
In a communist utopia, that should be possible no?

Cross, we live in a world of limitations, snarky comments about communism not with standing.

Even if we had everything we could possibly desire we still have a limited time on earth, thereby limiting our ability to enjoy those supposedly unlimited resources.

But, of course we do not have unlimited resources.

We don't have unlimited doctors, nurses, and caregivers. More doctors practicing plastic surgery in California means fewer doctors in general practice in Louisiana. We don't have unlimited dollars to spend researching the causes and treatments of every ailment. Money spent on HIV/AIDS research is money not spent on cancer or heart disease research. Nor do we have unlimited dollars to spend on building hospitals, buying new technology, or paying for drugs.

EVERY HEALTH CARE SYSTEM RATIONS CARE. Hence, the topic of this thread about first principles. How are you going to ration limited health care services? What is going to be the governing philosophy concerning the treatment of the sick and injured. That isn't pie-in-the-sky, Cross. It is a fundamental question. If you can't answer that, then what is the point of debating the particulars of any health care legislation?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:00 pm 
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I was dead serious about the communist comment. That wasn't being snarky.

You already admitted you're not concerned with political reality. So if this is an intellectual exercise, I don't agree with your premise that any society would be unable to meet the health care demands of its people fully.

In a perfect communist society there would be no such thing as not enough doctors.
"From each according to their ability"

To answer your direct question however. I believe quality of health care should be determined by ones ability to pay for it with a basic level afforded to all.
Yeah, I guess I'm a cold bastard.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:43 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
I believe quality of health care should be determined by ones ability to pay for it with a basic level afforded to all.

Since we have 14.1 million children in the United States who live below the poverty line (about 1-in-5 American kids), I guess they just miss out on the luxury of good health?

Appropriate for the season, Cross. "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" (Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol)

Or does your comment about a "basic level afforded to all" mean some sort of government option?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:48 pm 
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My comment does refer to some sort of government option for people who can't afford it at all....just like the programs that already exist.
SCHIP, Medicare, Medicaid, State programs etc.

What I'm not talking about is equal (crappy) coverage for all.
Mandating equality will never work yet it's the ideal of the left for some reason.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
My comment does refer to some sort of government option for people who can't afford it at all....just like the programs that already exist.
SCHIP, Medicare, Medicaid, State programs etc.

What I'm not talking about is equal (crappy) coverage for all.
Mandating equality will never work yet it's the ideal of the left for some reason.

I guess we are just deluded by the Europeans and Canadians who don't know any better. Poor souls. They think they have peace of mind because they have affordable, effective health care, when actually they are just slaves to big government.

If they would just open their eyes then they too would adopt our health care system, as so many other nations of the world are.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:00 pm 
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The Swiss system makes Canada and the UK look foolish...yes.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
The Swiss system makes Canada and the UK look foolish...yes.

Great. I'll take their's:

*Mixture of government and private (our House plan, i.e. public option)
*People are required to purchase insurance (our Senate plan)
*Insurers are required to offer this basic insurance to everyone, regardless of age or medical condition (our Senate plan)
*Insurers may not make a profit off of the basic plan

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Not exactly...the Swiss system is 100% private insurers.
There is no government run plan, only a government mandated basic plan which is subsidized if the individual cannot afford it.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=92106731

It's always seemed like a win/win to me, but the left in the US are intoxicated with the idea of single payer....what we're going to get is just a gateway to a public option then eventually single payer once the whole damn thing collapses.

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