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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Democrats are designing this thing to be so unconstitutional it'll be shot down in court in a NY minute.

Let's get past the whole thing about the Federal government requiring all citizens to buy a product from a private business...just check out the new shameless and unconstitutional wrinkle.

Obama has said he wants a tax on so called "Cadillac Insurance Plans" to help pay for the bill. It turns out that most of the people who hold those type of policies are union members (because lord knows the downtrodden workers must battle for their basic right to the best damn healthcare money can buy).

So the union members throw a fit and the Democrats swiftly drop to their knees and service their beloved special interest group.
Yep. the plan now is to exempt union members...and only union members from that tax.
http://spectator.org/blog/2010/01/13/re ... -special-e

This thing would never survive a constitutional challenge and I think the Democrats know it. But all they have to do is pass it and say they tried.

BTW, there's already a provision in both the house and Senate bill that would completely exempt Amish people from the legislation.
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/arti ... /301099964
How in holy hell is that constitutional either?

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:17 pm 
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I guess it would have been easier to come up with a workable healthcare bill if the Republicans had bargained in good faith, instead of looking for every conceivable way to play politics with this legislation and score points with the wackiest, most radical fringe elements of their party.

This bill is not much different from Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's healthcare bill in Massachusettes (people in the state are required to buy private insurance, and the poor get subsidies; a public exchange, where people who work at home or own small businesses can have access to the same kind of insurance as big corporations; using tax penalties to prod the uninsured).

The "Cadillac coverage" was actually proposed by...wait for it...Senator John McCain (he proposed an excise tax of 35% on insurance companies, targeting "those people who have the gold-plated Cadillac insurance policies that have to do with cosmetic surgery and transplants and all those kinds of things").

Of course, both are now distancing themselves from their own ideas, because the real important goal is to make sure the Democrats don't pass anything (wasn't Romney your guy in the election, Cross?).

I am profoundly disappointed in this bill, but I am to the point where I want the Democrats to shove it right down the throat of the GOP and then pull it out their ass before sending it to Obama to sign.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:22 pm 
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You blame a bill written 100% by Democrats....on Republicans?

Stunning.

Democrats put nothing in that bill to get Republican support. Your anger is grossly misplaced.
This is the best Democrats can do. All compromises were made within their ranks.

EDIT:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Of course, both are now distancing themselves from their own ideas, because the real important goal is to make sure the Democrats don't pass anything (wasn't Romney your guy in the election, Cross?).

Yep, and the system he stood up in Mass. has been shown to be a failure.
Democrats don't like empirical data though.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
You blame a bill written 100% by Democrats....on Republicans?

Stunning.

Democrats put nothing in that bill to get Republican support. Your anger is grossly misplaced.

Come on, Cross, are you going to sit there and try to convince people that the GOP bargained in good faith?

It would truly be stunning if you believed that.

From the start they have used every trick to ensure that healthcare reform failed, no matter what was in it. This is a bill that is essentially Republican in nature. It is not much different from Romneycare, which the GOP was pushing back when they thought there was going to be a public option. Once that was dead, the GOP backed off from the ideas proposed by Romney and McCain, saying those were also unacceptible.

Did nothing to get GOP support?!?!?! Are you kidding me? Are you seriously telling me the the Republican Party is so far off the deep end that they can't support legislation proposed by Blue Dog, conservative Democrats? How radically liberal do you think Joe Lieberman and Nebraska Senator Bill Nelson are?

The GOP has made no effort to honestly reach across the isle, sitting on the sidelines, stalling, making up lies about death panels, and generally playing the role of insurgents whose only goal is to stop any legislation whatsoever.

Obama won the last election campaigning on healthcare reform as his main issue, yet Republicans act as if they won they election.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
EDIT:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Of course, both are now distancing themselves from their own ideas, because the real important goal is to make sure the Democrats don't pass anything (wasn't Romney your guy in the election, Cross?).

Yep, and the system he stood up in Mass. has been shown to be a failure.
Democrats don't like empirical data though.


"Seven in 10 people in the state support the program, and no more than one in 10 would repeal it." said Robert Blendon with the Harvard University School of Public Health.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/20/ ... index.html

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Come on, Cross, are you going to sit there and try to convince people that the GOP bargained in good faith?

No...I'm not saying that at all.

Of course the GOP didn't bargain in good faith, they weren't in the damn room...how can you blame them?
No votes, no amendments, nada.

The GOP didn't kill the public option, Lieberman did.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Come on, Cross, are you going to sit there and try to convince people that the GOP bargained in good faith?

No...I'm not saying that at all.

Of course the GOP didn't bargain in good faith, they weren't in the damn room...how can you blame them?
No votes, no amendments, nada.

The GOP didn't kill the public option, Lieberman did.

So, you acknowledge that the GOP did not bargain in good faith, which everyone knows because numerous GOP senators said they would vote against ANYTHING the Democrats proposed, yet the Democrats were supposed to sit down with people whose only goal was to kill any healthcare bill and pretend the minority party was interested in real reform?

?????

The Democrats came up with what was essentially a nationwide version of healthcare reform proposed by a Republican governor and major GOP presidential candidate, but NOT ONE of 40 Republicans could support it?

Give me a break.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
"Seven in 10 people in the state support the program, and no more than one in 10 would repeal it." said Robert Blendon with the Harvard University School of Public Health.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/20/ ... index.html

That's no way to judge success. Touchy feely nonsense.

The facts are, it's losing money, doesn't cover everyone and has unaffordable deductibles for the people that need it the most.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/edito ... ailing_us/

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
So, you acknowledge that the GOP did not bargain in good faith, which everyone knows because numerous GOP senators said they would vote against ANYTHING the Democrats proposed, yet the Democrats were supposed to sit down with people whose only goal was to kill any healthcare bill and pretend the minority party was interested in real reform?

I'm saying they didn't bargain at all...good faith or no.
They weren't at the table.
They took their ball and went home.

Stop blaming flawed legislation on people that didn't write it.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:50 pm 
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What I said, Cross, was it would have been easier to pass meaningful legislation if the GOP did their job and participated in the process. However, once they made it clear that they would vote in lockstep like a bunch of mindless automatons that meant that the Democrats had to get every one of their 60 votes, giving each Democratic senator veto power over the bill.

With such power any Democratic senator could get anything he or she wanted or else the entire package would be killed.

So yes, I do blame the Republicans for not negotiating in good faith, because they essentially guaranteed all of the exceptions to this bill that you hate so much.

Is this really the kind of government you want, where the minority party does nothing except block the other party's legislation?

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Is this really the kind of government you want, where the minority party does nothing except block the other party's legislation?

When Washington does nothing I'm usually pretty pleased.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Is this really the kind of government you want, where the minority party does nothing except block the other party's legislation?

When Washington does nothing I'm usually pretty pleased.

Well, the last time we decided that our political ideologies were more important than our country we fought a civil war.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Godzilla1960 wrote:
Well, the last time we decided that our political ideologies were more important than the country we fought a civil war.

I love my country and distrust my Federal government, doubt its ability to do anything right and question the motives of its politicians.

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:13 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Is this really the kind of government you want, where the minority party does nothing except block the other party's legislation?

When Washington does nothing I'm usually pretty pleased.

I second this motion. :clap:

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:14 pm 
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Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Well, the last time we decided that our political ideologies were more important than the country we fought a civil war.

I love my country and distrust my Federal government, doubt its ability to do anything right and question the motives of its politicians.

I second this Motion as well. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

(This one is a 4 out of 5 clapper xcheck)

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:32 pm 
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slesh wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Is this really the kind of government you want, where the minority party does nothing except block the other party's legislation?

When Washington does nothing I'm usually pretty pleased.

I second this motion. :clap:

With respect to you both, I think yours is a minority opinion.

Here are a few things the federal government has done that I think most Americans would count as worthwhile achievements:

Rebuild Europe After World War II
Expand the Right to Vote
Promote Equal Access to Public Accommodations
Reduce Disease
Reduce Workplace Discrimination
Ensure Safe Food and Drinking Water
Strengthen the Nation's Highway System
Increase Older Americans' Access to Health Care
Promote Financial Security in Retirement
Improve Water Quality
Support Veterans' Readjustment and Training
Promote Scientific and Technological Research
Contain Communism
Improve Air Quality
Enhance Workplace Safety
Strengthen the National Defense
Reduce Hunger and Improve Nutrition
Increase Access to Post-Secondary Education
Enhance Consumer Protection
Expand Foreign Markets for U.S. Goods
Protect the Wilderness
Promote Space Exploration
Protect Endangered Species
Expand Home Ownership
Strengthen the Nation's Airways System
Increase Low-Income Families' Access to Health Care
Improve Elementary and Secondary Education
Advance Human Rights and Provide Humanitarian Relief

...and this has only been in the last half century. Not bad for government work.

The achievements of the U.S. government will go down in history as some of the most amazing developments in human history. Our government isn't perfect and they haven't created a utopia, but I'm damned proud of what we have accomplished, as a people and through our government, which, in a democratic republic, is the voice of the people. As Winston Churchill said, "democracy is the worst form of government...except all the others."

By the way, Cross, your business (and job) wouldn't even exist without the research and development of the federal government.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:11 pm 
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This health care bill is not a grand achievement of our Federal government.

A majority of Americans are strongly opposed to it.
Certainly such sweeping legislation should have strong support if our great democratic republic were functioning as it once had.

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slesh
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Here are a few things the federal government has done that I think most Americans would count as worthwhile achievements:

Rebuild Europe After World War II
(most of the money had to be used to buy U.S. goods.)
Expand the Right to Vote
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Promote Equal Access to Public Accommodations
(Define please, what Public Accommodations?)
Reduce Disease
(Once again, I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation and should actually fall under National Security if you think about it rationally)
Reduce Workplace Discrimination
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Ensure Safe Food and Drinking Water
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation, I will split the subject however, althought the FDA defines parameters, the water issue is handled at the local level following those parameters, and you need FDA regulation due to the movement of food resources on a national/international scale)
Strengthen the Nation's Highway System
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation, it actually falls under commerce. But if you think of it rationally once again, you will immediately notice it is not necessary since the states handle O & M of the interstate systems within their own borders, but to build it initially, yes the Federal level was needed to coordinate the effort and financial means, sounds like a one time tax that spanned the time of the initial build. States should be responsible for subsequent spurs off of this system, thereby keeping the taxes "local". I mean really, if xyz trucking in Boise, Idaho never uses the 990 for any commerce, aren't they getting screwed by having to pay for it?)
Increase Older Americans' Access to Health Care
Not necessary if those Americans would have planned properly and applied savings through their lives. Of course, you need to have a competitive market for those Health Care services and ethical regulation of such
Promote Financial Security in Retirement
Completely false, how you even list this is beyond me. All the government has done is push the payment for this bill onto the next generation and financially it is a proven failure. So you can tell grandma and grandpa its ok, you'll be cared for, but tell your grand kids what? Sorry kids, but its not my fault your great great grandparents spent the bank so they could bask in retirement?....see Social Security for details.
Improve Water Quality
Repititive........See Ensure Safe Food and Drinking Water above
Support Veterans' Readjustment and Training
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Promote Scientific and Technological Research
Falls under Commerce and is actually done on a Quasi-entity level, between the private and public sectors (at multiple levels)
Contain Communism
See Vietnam......I guess if you could ask the 58,236 that died there what would they say? I would include the 36,516 of the Korean conflict, but atleast they fought to a stalemate. How much is a life worth?
Improve Air Quality
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Enhance Workplace Safety
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Strengthen the National Defense
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Reduce Hunger and Improve Nutrition
This is more philosophical in nature, The farmers reduce hunger, the government has approved products that actually counter your statement of "improved nutrition".......not to mention they still let McDonalds keep their doors open, kind of a hypicritical program, do ya think?
Increase Access to Post-Secondary Education
Not Necessary, you want a post-secondary education, be accountable for yourself
Enhance Consumer Protection
(Dept. of Commerce. I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Expand Foreign Markets for U.S. Goods
Hmmmm............see NFTA, CAFTA or for a blanket coverage, see Free Trade Agreements overall. I'm sure the steel, automotive, textile and various other industry workers (millions of them by the way) that are now making 50% less or more now share your enthusiasm.
Protect the Wilderness
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Promote Space Exploration
See...........Promote Scientific and Technological Research
Protect Endangered Species
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Expand Home Ownership
Do we really want to start speaking on Bear Sterns, Freddy and Fanny? I mean really Godzilla, you put this on the list?
Strengthen the Nation's Airways System
(Dept. of Commerce. I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation)
Increase Low-Income Families' Access to Health Care
(I don't see how this is outside of the realm of normal government operation, but, I would put this under National Defense, including the CDC, the outbreak of disease through inappropriate treatment could cause wide spread disease, thats the only reason why, otherwise, be accountable for ones self.)
Improve Elementary and Secondary Education
Necessary only at the local level, not the federal
Advance Human Rights and Provide Humanitarian Relief
Not necessary..........even the founders touted against foriegn intervention, more money comes from the private sector for these types of programs than the public sector. I am not saying they are bad ideas or insturments of safey for our nation, but quite frankly, people need to be self accountable, even people in other nations. Our own founding we did not receive direct help, we had to purchase it, from the French.

...and this has only been in the last half century. Not bad for government work.
I think you are missing the point on government intervention altogether.

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Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:30 pm 
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slesh, your definition of the "normal realm of government operations" certainly isn't typical for a leave-me-alone libertarian. Talk to Cross about the "normal realm of government operations" according to libertarians - deliver the mail, enforce the criminal justice system, defend the borders.

That's it.

That said, so you believe that when the government does something good (like developing a space program, creating the Internet, ending smallpox, building an interstate highway system, ending public descrimination, ect.), then that is just what they are supposed to do, no credit need be given for a job well done?

We will only focus on what they didn't do well?

By that same measure I could say the Sabres are supposed to win the Stanley Cup every year and when they do, then no need to give them a pat on the back, but if they don't then they are screw ups, eh?

You're a tough audience. I hope you find a government system that lives up to your high expectations.

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Crosscheck
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:41 pm 
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I prefer the power of government to be maintained as locally as possible. That way it's easier to grab lawmakers by the marbles when necessary.
Our Federal government over steps the bounds defined in the constitution every single day.
That's a fact.
Particularly the 10th amendment which should just be repealed at this point.

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