It is currently Thu May 28, 2026 5:34 am

View unanswered posts | View active topics


Board index » Buffalo Sabres Hockey » The Lounge » Thar be dragons » Politics

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 4 of 4
  [ 75 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:44 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:01 pm
Posts: 15390
Location: michigan
i dont really think its wrong to tax people... which is kinda the vibe im getting from the end of your post.

_________________
Image
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:46 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
i dont really think its wrong to tax people... which is kinda the vibe im getting from the end of your post.

Here's a softball...

The Federal income tax is unconstitutional.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
ironyisadeadscene
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:48 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:01 pm
Posts: 15390
Location: michigan
why exactly?

_________________
Image
Top
 Profile  
 
Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:55 pm 
Offline
Garbage Man
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Florida: America's Biggest Ponzi Scheme
Look, Cross, I'm not saying government does everything, however, you seem to be saying that government does nothing; that John Gault-like individuals do everything on their own and government only gets in the way.

That is not true.

Private enterprise only was able to take root and exist AFTER the development of centralized governments, which have only existed for about 400-500 years. It is government that is able to establish standardized weights and measures, protect private industry, enforce contracts, create infrastructure, support banking and financial institutions, and educate a population who become the workforce of industry.

Sure, private business has done great things with computer and Internet technology (as just two examples), but there is no denying that ENAIC, the first general-purpose electronic computer, was developed as a government program, and that ARPANET, the beginning of the Internet, was also a government program.

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that government, while it has its flaws and is not the answer to all problems, is capable of doing some pretty amazing things. After all, the government is us.

_________________
"Go out and run 'em."
- Lindy Ruff, 23 Feb. 2007


Last edited by Godzilla1960 on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:56 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 16859
Crosscheck wrote:
Godzilla1960 wrote:
Tell that to the 2.7 million people who work for the largest employer in the United States...the U.S. federal government.

Or the 6.2 million teachers in this country who are paid by state governments.

Or the 1.4 million active military personel.

Tell that to the people who deliver the mail, work at NASA, build our highways, maintain our park systems, research and develop new drugs in government labs, inspect our food, water, and drugs, who work in law enforcement, and the countless other jobs that the government doesn't create.

Yeah...the job creating engine of our economy...the Federal government.

Give me a break.

You just listed about...oh say 11 million people....out of 300+ million.
Are we still hiring?
Who pays those salaries?

We have more people currently unemployed than are employed by government.
There's a massive difference between simply employing people (at a net loss) and creating jobs.

The government
Doesn't
Create
Jobs.


Isn't the population of the country 300,000,000? I don't think each and every single one of them is working...

_________________
Proud LGBTQQ Individual
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:57 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 of the Constitution
"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

ie, the Federal government can tax the states in proportion to their size determined by the census.
That didn't stop them from trying however and the attempts were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1895.

So, knowing government could no longer survive on excise taxes and tariffs alone, they crapped out the 16th amendment.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
Quote:
You just listed about...oh say 11 million people....out of 300+ million.

Isn't the population of the country 300,000,000? I don't think each and every single one of them is working...

Right.
I never implied they all were working....maybe Zilla can hook them up with a sweet government gig.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
CriminallyVu1gar
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:35 pm 
Offline
Captain Dynasty
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 16859
Crosscheck wrote:
CriminallyVu1gar wrote:
Quote:
You just listed about...oh say 11 million people....out of 300+ million.

Isn't the population of the country 300,000,000? I don't think each and every single one of them is working...

Right.
I never implied they all were working....maybe Zilla can hook them up with a sweet government gig.


Well the conversation was about jobs, and only those of working age can legally hold a job. So why take the 11M and compare it to the overall population of the country instead of the total workforce as you did? It just looks like you're trying to make your own position look better by exaggerating through the misuse of statistics.

_________________
Proud LGBTQQ Individual
Top
 Profile  
 
SABRESAllTheWay
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:55 pm 
Offline
MegaDouche
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:41 am
Posts: 2752
Location: Fairfax, VA
I would imagine all major companies (including the government) take statistics and misuse it since most of the population that they care about changing the mind of don't know better.

I would like to take this recent election in Massachusettes. The winner pushed his campaign against health care, and I'm assuming that most of the people against the health care package are misinformed through faulty statistics and if not that they probably have their own health insurance and say "well i'm fine now, so I don't want the government to regulate my health care" not giving a shit about those out there who deserve health care and can't afford it and don't have it. The winner in MA won because he took something people were misinformed about and ran with it trying to get people on his side (health care).

It's easy to get an opinion when someone gives you one, presents it in an extremely faulty statistical manner to which you completely understand and "get it" so you're convinced you want that and stay on that side.

These types of convos are fun to read, and I appreciate that everyone stays fairly civil afterwards. Great group of forumers here :D

_________________
Image
Top
 Profile  
 
Squanto
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:07 pm 
Offline
Carlos Spicy-Wiener
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:31 am
Posts: 9240
Location: FAP TURBO
Crosscheck wrote:
So, knowing government could no longer survive on excise taxes and tariffs alone, they crapped out the 16th amendment.


Cmon man..

The Constitution was never intended to be an immutable document, never to be changed, with the words of the founders set in stone.

The 16th amendment was ratified by an overwhelming majority of the states, more that the minimum required.

I don't think that 'crapped out' is the best way to look at it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:12 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
Squanto wrote:
Crosscheck wrote:
So, knowing government could no longer survive on excise taxes and tariffs alone, they crapped out the 16th amendment.


Cmon man..

The Constitution was never intended to be an immutable document, never to be changed, with the words of the founders set in stone.

The 16th amendment was ratified by an overwhelming majority of the states, more that the minimum required.

I don't think that 'crapped out' is the best way to look at it.

They tried a direct tax and the Supreme court shot them down.
They passed the 16th amendment and immediately started directly taxing income.
Several congressmen agree with me BTW.

The only reason the Federal government needs all that extra cash is their overstepping the bounds of the 10 amendment.

My problem isn't with paying taxes, it's with paying taxes to the Federal government as opposed to my state and local governments.
And that is something the founders actually did want set in stone.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:35 pm 
Offline
Garbage Man
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Florida: America's Biggest Ponzi Scheme
Crosscheck wrote:
ironyisadeadscene wrote:
i dont really think its wrong to tax people... which is kinda the vibe im getting from the end of your post.

Here's a softball...

The Federal income tax is unconstitutional.

I bit on the cost of cigs discussion and on the jobs/government discussion.

I'll let someone else get hooked by the old 16th amendment chestnut.

Image

_________________
"Go out and run 'em."
- Lindy Ruff, 23 Feb. 2007
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
The framers set up our government to be bottom heavy...not top heavy.
The Federal government was never intended to be the size and scope it is today and was never granted the powers to do a whole lot of the things it does.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
Godzilla1960
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:19 pm 
Offline
Garbage Man
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Florida: America's Biggest Ponzi Scheme
Crosscheck wrote:
The framers set up our government to be bottom heavy...not top heavy.
The Federal government was never intended to be the size and scope it is today and was never granted the powers to do a whole lot of the things it does.

Yes, a lot of things have changed in the world in the past 220 years. As Thomas Jefferson said,

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions...But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

_________________
"Go out and run 'em."
- Lindy Ruff, 23 Feb. 2007
Top
 Profile  
 
Crosscheck
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:30 pm 
Offline
Sober enough to run a server
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 7477
Location: 2,568 miles from the F'n arena
Nothing in that quote screams "reverse the power structure of this government" to me.

Amendments have been made, laws have been passed, but the erosion of the original structure was something never voted upon.
It was taken, piece by piece by those in seats of power in Washington.

And you are their apologist.

_________________
Hold my beer and watch this...
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 4 of 4
  [ 75 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Board index » Buffalo Sabres Hockey » The Lounge » Thar be dragons » Politics

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: