Let me preface this by saying that I do not want to bash anyone's beliefs, but perhaps find a convincing argument to counter my doubts. I went to St Mary's Roman Catholic church on Main Street in Lockport for 14 years, EVERY 4:30 Saturday Mass. I was an alter server, and participated in most holiday masses.

I guess my real point of contention in the Bible is that it is so old...that outside the ten commandments, times were different. Manual labor, not computers, ruled the world. People *were* property, and prior to JC, following the Bible was just the same as worshiping Zeus, Tartarus, Cronus, or any of the other mythological Gods.

I see Jesus Christ as the Barack Obama of 2000 years ago, and I'm not saying it to be argumentative. I'm making the comparison because those people, as people of today, needed a savior, needed a change and the promise of hope. Information is more available and reliable today than it was then, and as such, I have my doubts. I suppose that's why they call it faith...

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Zilla...I just looked up your Ephesians verses...I looked a couple verses ahead and it says in verse 25, husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the chruch and gave himself for it to make it belong to God.

You have to understand that this stuff was written thousands of years ago before women went to work and this verse also tells husbands to treat their wives well and love them and respect them. They are to be a team. However, in your friend's situation, she's left alone to run the house while her husband is away working. This poses a problem, I can see. The basis of your verses, to me, says that the house should have a ruler or a boss. If there are two bosses, they will be in conflict. Just like in a job, only one person can be the boss and everyone else has to do what they say.

I think in today's world, it could be said that a wife could be in charge of the family as long as the husband is willing to relinquish the full control to his wife. Military wives, for instance, are the boss of the house while their husbands are out fighting for our country for over a year at a time. It would be stupid and ghoulish for him to come back from war and expect to just take the reigns from the wife and expect her to just sit down and let him take over and change all her rules. My next door neighbors are like this...Bill's gone to war and when he comes back, Rachel has him tiling the floor, cleaning out the garage...she's definitely the boss in the family and he just chuckles about it about it and says that Afghanistan's got nothing on Rachel! It has to be one person in charge, in this day, though, it could be either husband or wife. In my opinion. Does that make sense? When Ephesians was written, it wasn't really heard of for a woman to work or be in charge...but the family works best if ONE person is in charge.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

You're right...it is old. And times have changed, especially in the last 100 years! Holy crap, has it changed!! But the basic points of most things in the bible can be put to use in modern times. The lessons are still there. And you're right...that's exactly why its called faith!

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

I already said I'm not discussing anything in this thread anymore, but I've done nothing wrong. I've brought up passages in the bible and asked for interpretations. If people don't like the Bible and its contents thats not my fault.

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When I was a boy I spoke as a boy, I understood as a boy, and I thought as a boy; when I became a man I took that boy outside and shot him.

Aight Im glad this thread is getting back on course. I am currently in college and I dont have time right now to reply to somethings. But I will be back on tonight and I will be able to reply, and try to answer some questions... haha yup, but ill be back on later... for sure.

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LETS GO BUFFALO!

Captain Pants on the ground?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Oh, jeez...

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

That's a pretty harsh statement.

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"I'll rap you with my cane; you pencil necked geek!!"

-Bowler, imitating Freddy Blassie, at the very first M & G.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but it is nice to see that some of what I think/feel is shared by other board members.

I was force-fed Catholicism as a child and teenager, up until I left home at 17. I never set foot in a church again unless it was a funeral or a wedding.

I guess I equate the Bible with organized religion, and this just chafes me. I found a lot of hypocrisy in the beliefs I was taught vs. what's in the Bible, so I chose not to bother with either.

I guess from the standpoint of raising children (if I were to have any), I probably would've raised them Catholic (since it was my only frame of reference growing up), and then let them choose for themselves. I think children need something to believe in and then learn to shape their own beliefs through life experience.

I remember as a child wanting to go to services with friends who had other beliefs and my mother would freak out. So I would go without telling her just for the experience, but never really connected with any of it, so as soon as I was able to move out of the house, I abandoned any sort of organized religion.

I don't label myself as an agnostic, either, because I do believe there is something greater than us (Faith? Maybe.) that has some hand in the creation of things.

I guess some may call it spirituality, but I have a hard time with labels, so I don't know that I'd call it that, either. I know that when I commune with Nature (be it SCUBA diving, delighting in a simple walk on the beach, walking through fall leaves in the woods, or sharing an intimate moment with someone who I feel deeply connected to), I feel a sense of peace and connected-ness that I don't find anywhere else.

Laying on a beach, under the warm sun next to the ocean with the sounds of the waves lapping gently against the beach is as close to God as I know how to get. This is MY church.

While I respect another's beliefs (even if I don't agree with them), I find I cannot tolerate religious extremism in any shape, form or fashion. I am more of a live and let live person.

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[ERROR 404: User brain not found - Try again later]
"Sarcasm and cynicism: Just two of the many services I provide."
"Never make someone a priority when you are only an option for them."
"You can't polish a turd."

So, I'm guessing you don't get to church very often these days. Of course, ETC lives minutes from your house of worship.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Mrs RB...I totally get it. My husband is in the same spot you are. Its understandable when someone had a rough time with a religion as a kid. The minute you're able to make your own decisions, Sunday mornings are yours! I grew up Lutheran and it was such a more relaxed atmosphere, I have some of my greatest childhood memories at church. Parent's that cram religion down their kids throats are doing them no favors and more bad than good.

I love the idea of feeling at peace with God while out in the world. Its a beautiful thing.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

I would agree.

This message board isn't secular, nor is it religious. It's about hockey first, but also a community full of people that have different values and beliefs. If they choose to discuss them, that's fine. Not everyone does though.

We ask that everyone's beliefs be respected. That includes those that don't mesh with yours.

I don't want to be controversial here, and I certainly don't want to attack anyone's beliefs.

I don't believe in a supreme being, but I have no problem with it if anyone does. We live in a country where people are free to practice whatever religion they like - or none at all - and that should be the most important thing.

What irks me is when one religion feels the need to impose itself upon others. While you are free to practice what you want and speak as you want, I find it annoying at the least when one religion acts as if it should be given preferential treatment to other religions (or lack thereof) - that it is right, and thus everyone should accept its beliefs.

I was raised as a Catholic, although my parents were not very religious, and there were a few things that over the years began to turn me off.

First was the fact that I don't believe in a "higher power." Now, I know that's completely contradictory to the Catholic faith. But the fact that Catholics (as well as all other Christians, Jews, and Muslims) believe in God is not what bothered me. It's the sense that I got from those in the church or religious education system that portrayed those who do not believe in God as immoral, dirty human beings.

Is it not possible to have morals, a sense of right and wrong, and a genuinely good character without believing in a supreme being? I certainly think so, and it offends me if I am labeled otherwise simply because I do not believe in some higher power.

What also irks me - and this is part of my main point - is the proactivity of the church against issues such as abortion and gay marriage. I have absolutely no problem with them believing that they are wrong, immoral, whatever. But when they try to inflict their views upon everyone in the country, especially through politics and trying to infuse their views in government, it does bother me quite a bit.

Obviously we don't all have the same viewpoints in this country. I just wish everyone could respect that.

The fact that you came on here and decided to discuss those passages isn't what you are warned for. It's the way you came about it. You were very antagonistic in the way you tried to discuss the passages. You can participate in here all you want, I just ask that you come at it in a better way.

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This is a great representation of how I feel. I also don't believe in a supreme being.

I have had close friends and have close family that believe strongly in a God and I couldn't be any closer to each of them than I am now. I love the idea that religions can get along so well like this no matter how different.

Every member of this forum is a great individual, I feel like you're all family, yet it's apparent we all believe in different things, we all get along great and have a great time chatting with each other.

You all help me believe that the world can be like us as well. That would be my dream but I imagine it will only be a dream.

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Theological questions with no right or wrong answer.

Does God have a sense of humor? If not, why create it? If so, do you think He finds ETC funny? What would make God laugh? Is it blasphemy to suggest that Jesus could have brought the house down, or that Mohammed would have had them rolling in the aisles?

These are things I think about when I'm sober.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I love you, Sabresalltheway. I feel the same exact way as you, even though we both have different beliefs when it comes to God. We would all make a great salad, wouldn't we? (if you catch my meaning)

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

"Fundamentalists take it to be "the word". Not translatable, not metaphorical: "the word".
In the Genesis, "Let it be light!" could be a metaphor for the Big Bang?
No. God just went click. -Robin Williams.

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Check out my website: http://www.artistzero.com

"That wasn't very nice...I do believe you killed my hat."

Driver of the FIRE LINDY RUFF Bandwagon since 2008.

<sticks tongue out at ETC>*sighs* Unfortunately, you are all-too-correct in your observation. It's been 2 years since I've been to "church". I miss it terribly.




I still find joy and peace with things where I am now, mainly because of the people in my life. I believe that "God" (or whichever spiritual deity that I believe in-still not sure if I can label it) works through people. And I am sure that statement sounds trite or hollow to some, but I really believe that people are put in one's life for a reason, a lesson, a temporary connection (whatever one needs at the time), and once they serve their purpose, or complete the circle, they move on. Sometimes, one is fortunate enough to make a permanent connection with one or more people on a platonic, or deeper level and they become interwoven into the fabric of your life. And when something happens to that person, whether it be death, or a parting of the ways, it leaves a hole in that place that once was full. I guess if I had to make a comparison, it would probably feel like one's faith is being tested or even lost. That that which you counted on (people, nature or scripture) is not as it once seemed.

I haven't been able to find any biblical reference to any of the above, and if that makes me "bad" in someone else's mind, then so be it. I believe I'll be judged on the person that I am; living to be the best person I can be to others and keeping my personal values at the forefront.

The fire and brimstone that seems to comprise the religion I was raised with is completely at odds with my own life experience.

It does seem what goes around, comes around (Karma, I suppose, if one has to label it). Although sometimes it has been my observation that there are some unfortunates that no matter how hard they try to live right and do the "right thing" by others still seem to get the fuzzy end of the lollipop. Yet, they still somehow maintain a positive outlook. I guess I would call this "faith". The belief that somehow, it will all work out. Maybe others would call this optimism. Either way, it's a very personal/individual thing for each of us.

Because the scriptures (or any printed matter with religious tennets in it) are written by a human, this leaves it open to interpretation by each individual who studies it, as well as being colored by the perceptions of the person who committed these same thoughts to paper. Each of us could easily refute others' beliefs by finding a passage and sort of molding it to suit the topic at hand by putting our own slant on it.

Religious debate is as old as the human race and will always be a source of endless commentary, friction and war. While it is fascinating to explore others' beliefs and interpretations, sometimes it is best to leave this highly charged topic to the theologians or keep it to ourselves for fear of offending someone (intentionally or not).

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[ERROR 404: User brain not found - Try again later]
"Sarcasm and cynicism: Just two of the many services I provide."
"Never make someone a priority when you are only an option for them."
"You can't polish a turd."