The Palm Room isn't some service entrance.



The fact that there was trash there is certainly embarrassing. I don't think anyone is disputing that. However, do you truly believe that the president knew that and intentionally directed that exit to be use? The White House Protocol Office coordinates such visits, along with the State Department.

My whole point in this whole affair is that Obama just might have been as pissed off as the rest of us that the Dalai Lama was escorted by a pile of trash on his way out of the White House.

No.

Go read the first page of this thread....there you will find my outrage pre-garbage bag.

The back door shuffle was a bonus.

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If you go back and read, you'll find that Crosscheck was happy that George Bush told China to fuck themselves, while Obama tried to keep all parties happy.

That's why diplomacy wasn't known as one of Bush's strong points.

Personally, I originally became more sick when I saw the Dalai lama walking by trash than I did with Obama respecting China's wishes.

But that's just me, and I figured there had to be some kind of logical explanation for it being that way.

The fact that almost all of DC was shut down because of the snow does it.

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Wheelhouse

i knew what the thread was about. the added bonus was nullified.

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Um...Bush showed up in the Capital rotunda to present the Dalai Lama with the Congressional Gold medal.

...Awarded to him by Nancy Pelosi and a Democratically controlled congress (including Obama himself).

It wasn't a case of Bush "telling China to go fuck themselves"

It was a case of Bush and the Democrats agreeing on something.

What has changed in the minds of Democrats since then? That's what I want to know.

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BTW, just letting you know that I also do think for myself, Tom. I look at a situation, analyze it, and make up my own mind. I would defy you or anyone else to show examples of me breaking with what I believe in to attack for personal reasons.

Booyah!!

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302744,00.html

China wasn't happy about it back then, either. Bush came off as telling the entire world that China was wrong.

Obviously, I was using figurative language when I said Bush was telling China to go fuck themselves, but it doesn't change the fact that he essentially called them out in front of the whole world.

These are things you do behind closed doors, and I think the democrats now recognize that.

You can do good things without making dramatic statements.

EDIT: Look, we all agree that China is dead wrong in their approach here.

All I'm trying to say is, even though we know China is wrong, don't you think you can get more out of them by being cooperative and sensitive rather than flexing our muscles and telling them what's right and wrong?

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Wheelhouse

and there shall be peace in our time.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

That was just an added benefit of doing the right thing.

No...we need to stop acting like we need them for survival.
Their economic growth all but disappears if we close our markets and remove most favored nation status (thanks Clinton).

...and meeting openly with a world leader isn't a case of "flexing our muscles".
Dispatching a carrier fleet to Taiwan would do that.

off-topic...now that I think about it, between giving China most favored nation status and signing NAFTA, Bill Clinton single handedly destroyed the American manufacturing base.

Bang up job Bubba.

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Appeasement isn't a bad policy just because it didn't work with a man so cynical and senile that he committed mass genocide.

Who won that war anyways?

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Wheelhouse

PSP, what historical examples of appeasement can you cite to defend your opinion that it's a successful foreign policy?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

That's not an added benefit.



It's not about whether or not we need them, Cross. You're entirely missing my point.

If you scream and yell at a someone for doing something wrong, they're going to get pissed at you and become even more stubborn.

How is that a good foreign policy in terms of progress for Tibet?

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Wheelhouse

How is rewarding bad behavior a good policy....ever?
Maybe if we just appease them a little bit more they'll somehow become sympathetic to our wishes?

Good luck with that, it's been paying off in spades so far.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

How much did Bush's handling of his meeting help the situation with Tibet?

As far as I've read it hasn't.

Appeasement was used by every single nation throughout history, ETC. It wasn't anything special when Chamberlain resorted to it.

Hell, Churchill tried using it to end the Greco-Turkish war.

Eventually, a line is crossed where appeasement is null and void, no matter what country we're talking about.

Either way, appeasement isn't a very accurate way of defining my position on how the United States should handle China.




The invasion of Tibet was nearly 60 years ago. Have you been ripping every single administration for their policies towards China since that point?

Not to mention, I'm talking about trying to find ways to allow the CTA to operate within a Tibet identified as a genuine autonomous region within the People's Republic of China, which is what they're asking for.

The best way to do that is to find ways to get China and the Dalai Lama to sit down and talk, but they won't want to listen to what we have to say if we're calling them out in front of the whole world.

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Wheelhouse

stand by Tibet = no reward
Cow tow to China = no reward

I'd rather have our leaders do what's right given the opportunity, everything else being equal.

Under Bush they were still buying our T-bills....under Obama they're unloading them so fast they're no longer the largest holder of US debt.

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Since I started to give a shit about politics, yes.
Those feelings have only intensified since marrying into a Chinese family.

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Hold my beer and watch this...

And you don't think that your emotions affect your ability to think logically about how to deal with China effectively?

Option C:

Talk with China behind closed doors about negotiating with the Dalai Lama and the CTA, and help them save face by not criticizing them publicly.

If you did something stupid, and I stood up in front of a crowd and called you out for it, chances are you wouldn't like me very much, nor care what I had to say to you afterwords.

Why on earth do you think that would be a good way to deal with China?

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Wheelhouse

no, not at all.

What on earth would compel China to engage in such negotiations?

If I did something stupid and the entire world stood up in unison and called me out for it it would have a very different effect.
And occupation, murder, torture and theft is "doing something stupid", it's evil.

You're the only one suggesting that.
China knows the world is pissed about Tibet.
China knows they're systematically destroying a culture and religion....that's their goal.
Treating the Dalai Lama like the leader he is doesn't change any of those facts.
How does pretending we don't notice help?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-2784

Both Obama and Biden friggin co-sponsored the bill to award the Congressional gold medal to the Dalia Lama.

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Hold my beer and watch this...